Good afternoon, I'm Eileen Monreale, Education Training Specialist for IME Ray. Welcome to all of our attendees today. This is the last day of our four-day Intro to Inland Marine class. We saved the best for last, as fine arts is so interesting, and we are joined by an outstanding instructor, Andrew Vestina. If you lose audio at any point of today's class, you can always try dialing in. Just look for the phone number and our access code, which is on your control panel under audio. So you have two options for audio, if for some reason your audio fails. If your toolbar collapses, you can click the orange arrow, which will pop it back out. And if you're on your desktop version, you can always click view and uncheck the auto hide toolbar on your toolbar, which will keep it open for the entire class, which may be optimal because we hope you're going to be asking a lot of questions and we'll leave that open to use the questions box. If you do have questions, there are two ways you can ask questions. One is just simply type your question into the question box, and Andrew will get that. We'll keep an eye on it and we'll share questions throughout the session with Andrew so he can keep his eye on presenting. Also if for some reason you feel it's an advantage, which we always love to hear your voice, if you'd rather speak to the class, we could just open your microphone, so just say, could you open my microphone in the question box, and we'll see who that came from and we'll soft mute you, which will allow you to open your mic. Right now everybody's on a hard mute just to have better control of the class so accidents don't happen, which we know they often do. So Andrew looks forward to your questions and engagement, and once again, we'll ask our instructor to select a most slash best engaged after the class, and we'll send them a $25 Amazon e-gift card in appreciation of your engagement. We really look forward to a very engaging class and look forward to hearing a lot of your comments and questions. So Andrew, if you could just move to the next slide. Please be aware of the IMUA statement and refrain from discussing any rates or forms for conditions of insurance. And now I would like to tell you a little bit about my friend, Andrew. Andrew, if you could move to the next slide. Andrew is Assistant Vice President at Great Americans Fidelity Crime Division. He graduated from George Mason University and began his career at Huntington T. Block, a name that some of you may not recognize, but I do. He went to work at AXA Art and spent several years as a segment leader at Travelers. Andrew is a great asset to IMUA, among many others in the industry. He is Chair of IMUA's Arts and Records Committee and a vast source of arts knowledge and connected with everyone in that world. He's an engaging instructor, so you're all in for a treat. Please give Andrew a big virtual round of applause. Take it away, Andrew. Thanks, Ellen. And I'm going to put a note somewhere that sends you a new headshot, because that one that's... I don't know. Yeah. I just noticed there's a slight difference in the color of my hair, so we'll get a new headshot. All right. We'll change that one. Thanks. Yeah. No, I have been doing this for about 25 years. I really enjoy working with this line of business and working with everybody in it, so I'm happy to be here today with everybody. Yes, there is a prize for the most engaged, best question asker person on the call. I have been known to call a tie, too, so don't feel like you're out of it. If somebody is really getting out to a head start on that, please do ask questions. I'm happy to have people ask questions, both in writing and if they want to open up their mics and have a discussion. It makes it more fun for me to do that, because that way I'm learning from you as well as hopefully you're learning something from me. We are going to be here for about two hours, and I'm starting a timer now. Oh, not that timer. About two hours. What we're trying to do today is we're going to take a break about every 50 minutes. That works for you. If you need a break or something like that or anybody needs to stop us for a second, just let me know. And, Eileen, this is being recorded, is that correct, so it can be reviewed later if there's some questions? It certainly is, and they'll automatically get a copy. Oh, they'll automatically get a copy, okay. So hopefully we'll have an interesting and lively discussion here and learn a few things and give you guys some information. I know you've been learning a lot, and this is sort of on the last thing between you and perhaps a martini or a beer or a glass of wine, whatever it is. So please stay engaged, and I promise we'll get there. And if I get lots of questions, I might be able to get through this a little bit more quickly. I'm just saying it won't slow us down to ask questions, I promise. Okay, so what are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about this is the basics of fine art insurance. We're going to do an overview of what fine art insurance is, what it covers. We're going to look at the types of accounts that need fine art insurance. And then we'll look at the forms. And we're going to look at the basic forms. There are more forms that we're going to look at today, but we're going to look at the basic forms, which will help. We'll look at some specific underwriting issues, we'll cover other topics, and then we have some resources for you guys also. And we'll have a Q&A session at the end if there are any questions then. But I want all of your questions during the presentation, as I said, because there is a prize for the person with the best question, okay. So do we have, can they raise hands, can they do a show of hands? They can do it in the chat, right, if I said. Yes, they can. There are emojis. Oh, good. Okay. So we're going to look at sort of where fine art insurance comes from today. We're going to look at different types of art or coverage that's under that. We're going to look at a little bit of the history of the fine art insurance industry. So I've got some pictures up here of the old Lloyd's subscription room and then a picture of a sailing boat and a picture of a very pretty ballerina by Degas there. That is basically the point, too, that art insurance comes out of the oldest insurance trade really, which is the marine industry, and we'll get into that, I think, though. But next we have, ah, we do, we have our first chat question. So we're going to have chat questions and poll questions, and when these come up, what I want you guys to do is you're going to, the poll, when a poll comes up, you'll actually be able to click on the poll and answer it when a chat comes up. I want you guys to put into the box, this is how I know you're participating and you can actually hear me, is for you guys to answer this. So I have a question for you. What American artist has the record price at auction? Okay. And that gets, and so think about that and think about what your answer is. I'm going to talk on it for just a few minutes, a few things about this question. One, it's an American artist, so that's somebody who was born or practiced art in America. I will tell you, in this case, it is not a living American artist. This artist has actually passed away at this point. And then price at auction, which is an interesting, if you think about that, well, why is it price at auction specifically? Most of the art market is actually dark to us. That's because it's done through private brokers and dealers, which we're going to cover in a little bit. And they don't actually reveal the information on their sales because it's not required to, but however, our auction companies are required to publicly reveal what something sells for at auction. And some of them are public trade companies, so it becomes public information after it's released. So the auction records are our best way to get a barometer, not a perfect way, but our best way to get a barometer of how an artist is selling. So does anybody here have, I don't see any answers yet. Come on, let's see. Oh, there we go. Now I got some coming in. Use the questions. That's it. Use the questions to show the program. Okay, here we go. Rachel Smith, Norman Rockwell, which is an awesome answer, but not correct. I love Norman Rockwell. You know why I love Norman Rockwell? Because he shows Americans how good we can be. And then I see two Warhols there, and I'll cut to the chase. Yeah, Tim and Julie, you got it right. It is Andy Warhol. And Griffin Basquiat was correct until recently. About a year and a half ago, Andy Warhol called Blue Shot Maryland, I believe that's correct, which is one of his paintings of Marilyn Monroe, sold at auction for close to $200 million. That was at Christie's. And the story behind it, why it's called Blue Shot Maryland, is a picture of Marilyn Monroe that was in a studio, and then an acquaintance of his came to the studio to try and shoot him. He lived in a very funky world where people did crazy things. And they missed, but they did put a hole in this canvas. So the canvas itself has been damaged, but it's intimately connected with the life of Andy Warhol, and therefore commanded, that damage actually probably raised the value or the desirability of the piece. And you can imagine if you are the type of person who can afford a $200 million painting to have your friends come over and say, oh, and yeah, here's the bullet hole. So we're going to look at a lot of different things in the art world that are perhaps interesting and out of the ordinary. And as I said, I look forward to your questions on these. There are no bad questions and no silly questions. I love answering questions. Okay, so just a real quick show of hands, or not necessarily, but I hope some of you have had the opportunity in your insurance career to go to Lloyd's of London, which we have a picture of the Lyme Street building here. If those of you who have not had a chance to see Lloyd's of London in operation, I highly recommend making that a part of your insurance career at some point. It's a really interesting thing. And very different from the way we do it in the United States, because it's a much more in-person kind of industry, whereas we in the U.S. do things by email and phone call or teams call. They tend to do it more face-to-face. The insurance industry in London actually comes out of an interesting place. So do you know why we're called underwriters? Another trivia question or answer for you today. There were coffee houses in London. One of them was called Lloyd's, where the ship's captains would gather and they would discuss the shipping lanes and things that had happened along the shipping lanes and where they were successful and where they ran into trouble. And so those quickly became the information center. And the one at Lloyd's actually was the first place that someone put up a bulletin that said I'm going to be going in my ship here to go to these places and bring back this cargo. If anybody would like a share of it, please sign here. And so the underwriter would literally write their name under the ship's bill of lading to say that they were part of that syndicate. And so we're called underwriters because we come out of that tradition of taking risks for other people. Now, that naturally led into valuable objects insurance. Lloyd's of London is known for insuring all kinds of different things. And like I said, why you should go to Lloyd's of London and see at some point what they call the galleries, the five or six floors there that have underwriters on them. They insure everything from aerospace to energy insurance, there's a lot of liability insurance, there's medical malpractice and all sorts of things that come along with Lloyd's of London. But they're also famous for insuring things like high value cars and gyms and cash and transit and they have Yo-Yo Ma's cello there and then art, which is why do all those things fit together? Well, for the most part, you have extremely high valued objects that are mobile. And this is how we get to inland marine insurance in the U.S. It's a little bit different in London where a lot of finery is insured by the specie desk. The specie desk does cash and transit, precious metals, armored car, art, whereas in the U.S. we have it under inland marine and you sort of say, well, you know, why is it? Why do we, the inland marine underwriters, take on fine art in the U.S.? Oh, but before we answer that, I didn't realize we have our first poll. So the estimated global annual revenue in U.S. dollars for the sale of art is one billion, 30 billion, 60 billion. How much revenue? And it's estimated, remember I said, because earlier the only place where we really have knowledge of those auction records, we don't have direct knowledge of the private sales that go on and the other ways that art is transacted. But what do you think the estimate is? I see some answers coming in. Eileen, how long do we keep these out there? You might not be able to hear, but we'll do it for a few minutes. Some interesting... A few seconds. We can launch it whenever you're ready. I think they've had ample time. Oh, and I think... We can launch the results. It's in progress. Now let's hold off on just one more point while these guys are filling in. Just to give you an idea, and I see nobody guessed a billion, but we recently here in New York, we had the contemporary masters week of sales that occur in November. And in one sort of two week period here in New York at auction, roughly two and a half billion dollars worth of art was transacted, which is just absolutely astounding that we have an economy and a market where people can trade two and a half billion dollars worth of goods. Now the trick is to figure out how to insure and tax all of that commerce. And we're going to talk about the insurance part of today. So we can launch the answers now. I think it looks like they're in. And it looks like... Can I... I can't see... What I'm looking at is I see 11% said 10 billion, 50% said 30 billion, 39% said 60 billion. That's correct. That's what they said. Yeah. It's actually a $60 billion worth of art is transacted globally, worldwide. That's a tremendous amount of business. It's nothing compared to other commodities. If you think about things like coffee and energy and other things like that, it's not in the same category, but it is still a lot of business. And we as Inland Marine Underwriters certainly have opportunity out there to participate in that. More on the global market in a poll to come. So keep thinking about that. And I was just remembering, okay, so this is virtual. You guys are welcome to Google answers to polls and trivia questions if you want to, but you will know that you cheated. So just making sure that's clear. By the way, I'm happy to have people who came in and I think the four that said Warhol, you're now in the lead for the most engaged and the person, I see Josh Nielsen said, I have to consult Google. You're definitely getting an honorable mention for that comment. Why is fine art insurance under Inland Marine? Well, Inland Marine, my favorite insurance oxymoron, what does that mean even? It's like, well, it's property, it's mobile, but it's not on the ocean. We'll call it Inland Marine, all right? And to make it worse, very often it's called an Inland Marine floater, which makes zero sense. But why do we have it as Inland Marine insurance in the US? Well, first of all, it's because of the unique nature of fine art as property, as mobile property. So it does make some sense that you would look at it as Inland Marine. Not all art moves around, but at any given time you can have art in transit. The other part of it is, is that it doesn't seem to fit really well with property underwriters. They don't like the concentration of values, they don't like perhaps the fragile nature of it, they don't understand the mobile nature of it. So property underwriters have kind of shied away from it. And for those of you who are in large insurance organizations and have been doing Inland Marine for at least a little bit, you know that us Inland Marine underwriters are sort of considered the, oh, we'll give it to those guys, they'll write anything, and that way you don't have to mess with our statement of business and what we insure, you know, we have our niche and Inland Marine guys take everything else. So we appreciate that, we're always happy to take their business. But that is generally why it's Inland Marine. The other reasons for that also is that Inland Marine very often the way the, in companies, the way the reinsurance is structured and the capacity is structured, is able to take on fine art values more easily than other lines. And when you think about that, it's not unusual at all for a work of art to be worth a million dollars. And it's not even unusual at all for a work of art to be worth $50 million these days. When I was a young underwriter, one of the first, the really big accounts I did, I insured a single painting by Picasso called Garcon Con Piper Boiled with Pipe, and at the time it had sold for the princely sum of $104 million, and that was a record for a single work of art at the time. There are dozens of artworks, if not hundreds of artworks worth more than $100 million in the world today that may come up for sale. So these days, it's, you know, you really need capacity to be able to properly insure art and the Inland Marine underwriters seem to have better access to that. I think that's because we have to be able to, you know, Inland Marine departments have to be able to manage construction projects and bridges and towers and cranes and things like that. So, okay. Yeah, a little art humor. We're going to talk a little bit about what art is today and what that means for us in the insurance industry. You know, obviously art has a lot of interesting stuff that happens with it. Sometimes it's offensive. Sometimes it isn't, you know, and nobody seems to be happy either way. Certainly art is very sensational. We have to deal with some interesting elements of it, you know, today with the carbon protesters that are throwing stuff on paintings and museums. It certainly raises some eyebrows about what we're actually insuring for. That said, it's, I think, you know, one of the most interesting property classes you can work with in the insurance industry. And certainly from my own career and perspective, when people say, what do you do, if I want to disengage the conversation, I say, well, I'm in the insurance industry. And if I want to engage the person, I say, I do art insurance and all of a sudden people are like, oh, I'd like to talk to you about that. So I really enjoy this part of the industry. I hope you guys will have some time to get involved with it if you're not already and enjoy it as well. All right. Not a poll question, just a question for you guys. This is chat. Who is your favorite artist? And if you don't have a favorite artist, well, you can contact me afterwards and I'll help you find a favorite artist. Personally my favorite artist is Edward Hopper. I don't know how many of you guys know him. I'm coming to you from a very foggy New York City today. And Edward Hopper was a New York City painter. And if you're here in the city, I hope you have the opportunity to go to the Whitney Museum of Art and see the Hoppers that they have there. They really have an amazing collection. Or if you go, just about every contemporary American museum in the U.S. Also Chicago. Being a New Yorker that I am, I'm going to tell you my one of my favorite jabs at Chicago They're probably most famous painting in the Chicago Institute of Art is Nighthawks by Hopper So the most famous painting in Chicago was painted by a New York artist in New York No offense Chicago Art Institute of Chicago is an amazing museum and we're in awe of what you have there Let's see what we came up with here. So Melissa Moss interesting. Okay And Van Gogh Julie, I like that very much and Tim Andrew Banksy I I enjoy Banksy very much. He presents something interesting to us whereas he has to avow his work and you know his gallery pest control has to verify it and we've been around the Conversation a few times about what Banksy's are actually worth if he hasn't said if he hasn't said that's my painting So very and question is, you know, even who the artist is and then Rembrandt. I love a traditionalist. Thank you Catherine I really enjoy Rembrandt's work as well All very good answers and definitely some people who are getting out in the lead for that prize at the end of this Conversation and feel free to unmute your mics and talk to us if you if you guys want it if you're more comfortable talking rather than typing By the way, yeah, I saw you a nice correction on Van Gogh. I do you pronounce it then go and I don't know I go then I just say they go Okay, so There's some interesting and if you have any just shout out if you have any questions, but um There's some interesting things that come up in this question and from a sort of philosophical perspective arts hard to define Most means most of the dictionaries that you look into will say it's something along the lines of works of human creativity of all types You know, sometimes people say what makes art and I say well the artist says it's their art doesn't make it bad or good Art just makes it art for us. We're dealing with something. That's a little bit more traditional in thought process Fine art means and this is what you'll probably see in most fine art forms Fine art means and you know that the quote marks mean that it's a defined term, right? Means paintings etchings prints drawings including frames glasses and shadow boxes So the cases that the art is in rare books manuscripts tapestries statuary take a deep breath because this is the important clause All their bonafide works of art rarity historic value artistic merit Which then opens it up to almost anything can be fit into this fine art form definition not necessarily definition of fine art But it does mean this week are able to ensure a lot more under fine art forms than people perhaps realize And we'll talk a little bit more about that as that as we go on with the slides checking my time Let's be talking fast. I feel like I'm getting through too many slides I mean if I if I go too fast or if I'm talking too fast shout out to me So Let's look at these two examples I have on the screen here because they pose some interesting questions to us about art But one on the left Dan Flavin Dan Flavin is a light artist and he does these installations with fluorescent tubes That look or either abstract shapes or perhaps or slightly more figurative shapes But represent buildings or something else like that and obviously very fragile what's interesting about them is that When you have a Dan Flavin you when you buy when you receive a certificate from the artist This work and the work it has a description of what the work is Now if one of these light bulbs breaks You're able to go and buy another light bulb and replace it. It is still that work of art. There's no loss in value However, if you lose that certificate, you no longer own a Dan Flavin and you just have a collection of light bulbs And that actually was borne out in a particular claim where we had someone who made a claim for work Where was actually the loss of the certificate and not the light bulb that was the the interesting insurance loss So more conceptual style or this is I know this is the type of stuff where you know At least people scratching their heads. It leaves me scratching my head sometimes on the right. We have Maurizio Catalan's Banana, this has been in the news a lot recently. So I thought I'd include it in the presentation today This is a banana that is duct-taped to a wall It is an actual real banana and It first appeared at Art Basel in Miami where I just was there last week, by the way It's a great Art Basel is an art fair in Miami It's actually one in Basel, Switzerland too, but there's one in Miami every year It was just last week You have something like 650 contemporary art galleries from all over the world attending five or six different fairs showing their works a few years ago Catalan put this up in a gallery at Art Basel and It brings together some interesting questions, but somebody actually purchased the banana Inducted for $100,000 at that time. Everybody thought that's insane And what they purchased was actually a contractual agreement from mr. Catalan that they had purchased his artwork Now you can change the banana out I'll follow up on this in just a second You can even eat the banana. You haven't damaged the work because you still own that contract with mr. Catalan I'm not sure how we're gonna ensure that Interestingly this work just sold again here at Sotheby's in New York a couple of weeks ago for six million dollars And in order to install the works Sotheby's went out to the corner of York Avenue to the fruit vendor and bought a banana We don't know what kind by the way. Somebody asked if it was a Chiquita banana I don't know and taped it to the wall and a Bitcoin Mogul bought it for six million dollars and indeed ate the banana So is it art? Yes. Is it my favorite art? Perhaps not. Do I think it's funny? I find it hysterical the value I'm not sure about that. I don't know what that means exactly I think it's interesting that the value is being supported by Bitcoin, which is also Kind of hard to lock on to as well. So That's just to get us in the right mind frame for that. We can approach almost anything with fine art insurance We have to have an open mind about what we're insuring But we also have to figure out what we're going to ensure if someone came to me and said would you ensure the banana I would say well, I Would not I would be the reason I wouldn't ensure it because there's no loss or damage to the physical object That would hurt its value in my opinion and I insure for Direct physical loss. I don't insure for market loss, I don't insure for You know gradual deterioration or inherent vice such as the banana oxidizing so No questions on that you guys are I've made it perfectly clear what happened with the banana. Okay, you're now experts When we think of art insurance, we're generally going for a more typical type of material that we're insuring Such as I think I see one question or actually two questions. They're from doing art. Yeah, great. Oh, I couldn't see them I'm sorry. I got scroll down. Yeah Julie, thank you. Um is the value decreased based on the number of bananas in the market? No, no, the there's only one banana that counts and that's the banana on the wall and Which is an interesting question because you know, there is a problem that bananas have there's this fungus that's killing all the bananas. Um, How many times can you sell the same Martin actually in this case? I think he has limited to an addition of three, but don't quote me on that I'd have to check it but he can sell this concept. Apparently he said he I will sell it three times So it's a it's an addition of three and very good questions, by the way With the loss of certificate be considered a total loss for the conceptual work. Yes, if you lose a certificate For the Dan Flavin and you have it scheduled on your policy That loss of the certificate is a total loss for the work. And I'm Believing has not been I don't and I'm not sure if he's still alive. I'd have to check on that He very well knows that he's still alive But I I don't know about replacement certificates. I don't think they do the I I do know of collections Where the Flavin's are listed the works by him are listed and it's just certificates that are in fact The the value of the artwork and the loss of that certificate would be a total loss. Very good question. Thank you, Griffin Okay, so When we're talking about art objects that we ensure we're talking about more typical things and these are perhaps When we knew that you're gonna be taking a course on art insurance, so paintings and particularly famous paintings like Waterlilies by Monet and then antiquities Ancient Chinese vases quick shout out. My wife is an expert and Chinese antiquities if you guys are ever in them, you know Market for for Chinese porcelain. She's the person to go to at Christie's Very very good question. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you To go to at Christie's very very lovely lady up the street here and then Sort of the more public arts cultural art things that we would walk by and this is a great Henry Moore piece right here that we immediately say ah, it is a work of art and it's not perhaps We don't understand entirely what it is But it's certainly something that we wouldn't doubt that that would fit under our insurance policy that one by the way is in Montreal In Toronto at the the Capitol building there in the city of Toronto And that we have that in there because we're going to talk a little bit about Problems with public art further on in the slideshow. So think about public art what problems it may have Other sort of more typical objects this slide here It's really just about collectibles and things you wouldn't necessarily think of but just about anything You can collect fits under an art insurance policy Buttons vintage firearms old photographs war memorabilia all of those things kind of can Be considered in that just about everything that people collect I have seen at one point or another People like what are the sort of the hottest collections you've seen the one that I always bring up I think it's fun as duck decoy collections believe it or not There's a there's a whole market out there for duck decoys and another one is quilts and people have very serious collections of quilts So so but people do ask me so what's the most interesting thing? What's the strangest thing you've ever insured and very often that depends on my audience about what I'll answer that for this particular Group, I haven't one coming up and I'll show you Other things that may kind of throw us off a little bit on what what's insurable art. This is a work by Dale Shihouli If you've ever been in a casino, you've probably seen a Shihouli if you've been to Seattle There's a there's a whole garden and he's out of his there. He shows up very often And this is all extremely fragile glass objects This was Cincinnati Art Museum. Cincinnati is the home of great American insurance. That's a little nod to them But Dale Shihouli this work is extremely fragile a Lot of its light fixture. So you're questioning. I'm ensuring a chandelier. I'm ensuring art Fortunately the student the Shihouli studio And it might be pronounced Shihouli going back to the Van Gogh thing, but I pronounce the Shihouli Has been very good when there's been damage. They've been willing to do repairs rather than call for a total loss So, you know, these are the types of things if you have a scheduled value, it's properly installed Yeah, probably would fit under a fine art schedule And if you think about the property insurer for like let's say this is in the casino real examples and All of a sudden the risk manager says well, I don't really think we want the $50,000 glass sculpture under our property policy Can we put under a fine art policy? And the answer is probably yes All right, so What's kind of the most interesting thing? I've got a call a few years ago Say would you be interested in ensuring some space shuttles as they were? Distributed to museums around the country and I bring this up as a little bit of a case study. Yes, that is me Without the gray hair the young man standing though to the right of me there is now six foot seven and getting ready to go to law school, but they they said would you like to insure a spaceship and I said, well, let me think about that and What had happened was at the end of the space shuttle program with NASA. There were four exited copies left and one of them was always going to be in Cape Canaveral down there in Florida at the museum one was always going to go to the Smithsonian but there were two that were up for grabs and they were actually awarded to the California Science Museum and the the Intrepid Air and Space Museum Here in New York and so this particular one the special enterprise came to New York but we worked with both the California Science Museum and the Entrepreneurs have to cover these while they were in transit, which was an interesting Process. Well, first thing we had to do was establish. What is the value of a spaceship? You know, it's not like you can recreate one. It's not like you can go get another one You know, they had never they will never be bought or sold So what is the value of them and what we came down to is we thought about it and we said well What is it going to cost to prepare? these for for delivery and deliver them and that turned out to be about ten million dollars to to Prep the space shuttle take all the things out of that didn't need to be in it includes the toxic materials Get it on to the plane By the way, the space shuttles when they're being moved around. I don't know if you guys remember this removed on a 747 piggyback like that and Brought to their locations and then put on display. It was about ten million dollars So we've just we decided on the value of ten million dollars I then went to my management at the time and said hey, by the way By the way, I'm gonna be insuring a space shuttle. They said well, it's a fragile. I said well, it's designed for atmospheric reentry. So now Anyway We were able to do that and one of those fun You know You always that you'll have fun days in your insurance career Going to see the space shuttle landed at Kennedy Airport was definitely one that I will call remember for a long time Okay Don't know if you saw the remark from Lindsay a question and I also want to remind everybody if you're so inclined you do have The option to open your microphone. Everybody's on a soft mute, too So do you have a question from Lindsay in my high net with personal lines day? I too did high net personal personal lines for a while. By the way, it's part of my career I was on one of the very first underwriters AIG private crime private client here in New York Let me see if I can answer this question I came across an original carousel collection in Mountain Brook, Alabama, yeah private collection of some of the The original Coney Island carousel horses and she did not have it on a fine art schedule under her regular contents I agree with you. That's what that's one that comes up So if you think about that people this is something and you know what? It's actually it's changing around the country how people perceive their collections but they get nervous about putting on an insurance schedule because they're afraid that somehow they're gonna get it's gonna cause a tax event or Somebody's gonna know what they have or they're feeling private about it And I really feel that there's they really shouldn't do that They you know, first of all find out insurance is usually a lot less expensive than people think it's gonna be These objects now the carousel items Those the horses that go on carousels are some of the most interesting Americana that's out there because the old ones Were hand-created hand-built. They're like four companies that did them and pretending Depending on which particular company come from They're they're more or less rare and their history about you know If they were on Coney Island, obviously that part of their provenance gives them a certain amount of value So it can be a fascinating part of collection. I actually have Insured here in New York as a carousel over in Brooklyn right now with all that on there That's why I know things like, you know, there were four companies that created carousel horses it's not because I you know, I'm a collector but you definitely want to encourage people to put things like that on a fine art schedule and then talk to them about valuation on that and and how we can help with that because Sometimes it's like well, I don't know what they're worth and you know, we can find values You don't have to have appraisals. You don't have to have somebody into your collection to tell you what things are There's there's different ways to ensure them that make it easier. So Love that comment. Thank you We're to our next poll As of 2023 the largest market for art by sales volume and again There's some estimates going on in here because of the gallery business being okay But what is the largest market for art by sales volume in the world today? We have the United States we have the European Union and we have China and Just some other markets out there that are important But these are the three largest but other markets that are out there that important that we need to think about There is a very big market for art obviously in the United Kingdom Which is no longer part of calculated the European Union numbers India is a Interesting and growing art market and a huge huge wealth of cultural property and depth there In the in their culture, so I have that's one to watch I think pretty closely And then the Southeast Asian countries Art markets are interesting in that The really big and successful art markets are ones that are in countries that seem to have free market capabilities in them And you know that the more that a market closes off or the more unstable Governments become that the art market always contracts, but there is always a market for art out Even in war torn countries, you'll still find people Trading and buying art. It's amazing okay, so I think looks like we've got a lot of votes there, so we'll go with that and Interesting 45% said China it is actually still the United States is the largest art market in the world Part of that is the market that I was talking about Last week, you know where we can actually do things in the United States like trade a billion a billion and a half of art in one week and There's no lawsuits. There's no confiscation. There's no Currency issues, there's nobody being arrested for income tax evasion because they're buying art I think it is that open market ability of the United States that attracts the world to us and the European Union is Second so for those of you guess that China Not quite stable enough yet to have a have the largest art market, even though they are the largest market in the world They are certainly important buyers and the Chinese market is important. It looked for a while In the in the teens that they were going to be the largest market in the world But that has that has changed direction this time Great answers. Thank you for answering those questions. I hope you guys are all Coming up with ideas and interesting things you can do And your insurance a career like, you know open up the Chinese art insurance market, which has been a challenge Okay How are we on time Pretty good. We'll go for another Sort of ten minutes here and then we'll get a break and we'll come back. Okay Okay, so we're going to look at a few different types of accounts as underwriters we need to understand You know, what is an art fine art account when it comes in? What do they look like who they are? Also, we're gonna as underwriters and partners of our brokers I hopefully there's some brokers on the line with us today to some agents This will help you identify where the markets are in your community As I remember, you know, from being an underwriter, I've been on the national stage for a little while now, but for a lot of my career, I was responsible for regions of the country, the New York region or the Southeast. And people say, well, is there an art market? Is there an art opportunity in my underwriting region? And the answer is, there always is. There are always collectors, there are always museums, there's always people buying and selling art. So let's look at that and think about what our opportunities are. I will be honest, I guess this is the place to be honest in the presentation. You know, art insurance as a sole practice is very unusual. There are not that many of us that do it just as underwriters or just as brokers. The business is not quite dense enough other than sort of here, I mean, New York and Texas and maybe California and Chicago, where you can build an entire practice on it. For most underwriters, it's part of their in-la-marine practice rather than the sole bit of it. So I recommend keeping an open mind to it, using it to balance out the book of business you have. If you're at some point decide that you really want to be just a fine art underwriter or broker, just have a talk. I can point you in the right direction or help you understand sort of how that market's going to work. All right, a few more objects down there. And you can see, we did, we talk about antiques yet and antiquities. Antiques and antiquities are very much an important part of this marketplace. So it's not just collectibles. If you think about chairs and furniture, things that are really functional rather than purely artistic, important part of the insurance that we do. All right, so what was, and then remember what I was saying, let's talk about what's in your marketplace. I didn't get a chance to review where you guys are from sort of all over the world. Oh, wait a second, before I ask this question, I'm going to have another, I have a question here from Sarah. It looks like I may have a few more, all right. It's coverage just during transit or is extends to the final destination as well. And Sarah, I don't know if that went back to, that might've gone back to my discussion about the enterprise. And it was coverage of both in transit and at the final destination. One of the interesting things about art as an inland marine coverage is that it really is one coverage for the main, for the listed location, the transit and the unnamed locations or the areas where it may rest in between named locations. Almost all the time when we do insurance for art, we're going to be covering the transit coverage. That doesn't mean that the art's going to be moving all the time, it just means that they have the opportunity to, particularly with personal lines, if you think about that, you wouldn't necessarily want to have to call your broker every time you wanted to move a piece in and out of storage or every time you wanted to take a painting from your New York City co-op to your Hampton's house. So it definitely includes the transit. I'm getting some good answers to what is the last museum you visited here. I see the Bruce in Greenwich. I actually live on the West Coast, so very close to Greenwich. So I very much enjoy the Bruce. The Canadian Museum of History. I don't know that one, Joseph. That sounds pretty interesting. Art Institute of Chicago, Sophia. That is probably the finest, it is the finest collection, in my opinion, the finest collection of Impressionist artwork in the United States. Really, absolutely amazing room there. For those of you who haven't been, the Impressionist room up on the top floor there at the Art Institute of Chicago has probably got two billion ounce worth of art in one room. The High in Atlanta, another one of my favorites. The High is interesting in that it's really, it's not really a public museum. It's the big museum in Atlanta, but it's still privately funded. Has an amazing foundation story. For those of you who want to go look that up, it's really interesting how it happened and why that museum exists. Natural History Museum in London, which is one of the great museums in the world. And a good example of, we're talking about art insurance, but we can also do natural history museums. So we're talking about dinosaur skeletons and rock samples and all of that. I don't know the Mütter Museum. I'd be interested to hear more about that in the Louvre. You got your picture with the Mona Lisa. So I'm glad you got to the Louvre. That is the most visited museum in the world, by the way. And getting your picture with the Mona Lisa, I think it's something everybody should do. I always ask, when you go to see it for the first time, it can be a little disappointing because number one, she's not very big and you have to stand back and it's very crowded, but I still think it's worth the trip. And the Children's Museum in West Hartford. You know what? I'm in Hartford all the time and I have not been to that one. I told you my children are too old to take the museum. Maybe I'll have some grandkids I can take there. And then the Durham Museum in Omaha. I don't know that one, John. That's kind of interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. You said that the Mona Lisa is smaller than you thought. Yeah, it is. It occupies a much bigger space in our psyche than it does on a wall, but she's still everyone and amazing to see. So I'm glad you got to go there and see that. The last museum I visited was the Met here in New York and I was there a few weeks ago with my wife to see some new Lewis Comfort Tiffany stained glass windows that they've installed there that are really outstanding. So if you guys are in New York, I'll tell you what, if you're in New York, you can give me a call. I'll go to the Met with you. We can look at them together, they're really cool. All right. I think that's a good place for a 10 minute break. Let's make it 12 minutes since it's 2.48. All right, Eileen, can we do that? Perfect, I'll put the return time as, what was the return time? At three. I will pop it into the chart. Everybody enjoy the break. Okay. Okay. All right, so we've got everybody out there. I see all your smiling faces and I'm just joking. I don't see any of you, but you can see me. So we'll get started and I hope you had a good break. We've got about another 50 minutes. We were just discussing it will get dark behind me in that time period probably. But then we'll get another quick break. I hope we're maybe done by then, but hopefully get through the last part of this. I know you guys have taken on, and like I said before, taking on a lot of information in the past few days, trying to make this fun. We've got a good question that just came in and may have an opportunity to answer that. We're going to talk about types of fine art accounts. Right now, we're going to go through the sort of, the different ones. We're going to start with museums, but we will get to private collections, corporate collections, historic sites, and some of those other ones. But we'll start with museums and then move on. So museums is an interesting one because as we were talking about before, they come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. You know, there's many different ways to think about them. And there's a lot of different kinds of requirements that they had. You heard me earlier when I asked you guys, what was the last museum you went to? And I was looking at those. You had a good list of, some of those were public museums. Some of those were museums that are funded under their own endowment. Some of those are associated with universities or schools. So there's a lot of different ways that these things are run. For our part on the insurance side, what we are sort of interested in is what's in the collection and whether or not we can cover that. So let's talk about that. So we'll talk about art museums, like the MET or the Art Institute of Chicago, the Museum of Fine Arts Houston. A little bit more straightforward, we understand that we're gonna be insuring what we've been talking about, which is the kind of, is fine art. But then you talk about children's and science museums and aviation museums, what are, transportation museums, what are we covering? Well, in children's museums and science museums, you may very well not be covering artwork or even precious objects. It may be the displays and the interactive kiosks that they have in there. The things that they use to educate the patrons. Certainly in science museums, you can have things like geologic samples and meteorites and that kind of stuff, which would be coverable, but sort of more as fine art, but you have to sort of consider that. So what I like to say is sometimes I call this a sort of undiscovered premium in a way. It's sort of, you have a museum, they say, well, we don't have any art in the museum, we just have our displays. Well, let's talk about an art insurance policy for that. Take it off the property policy. Remember I said very often the property insurers don't like having the art on there and put it on a specific form, which can be really helpful. Now, historic sites and houses, and we have a great question about this. This is what I tell people say, well, is there really any opportunity? I live in a smaller area or my town doesn't have a museum that it's, or only has one. If you go on the Wikipedia page for your town or city and look down at the bottom, generally there's a listing of important sites and institutions in that location. And they will list all of these historic sites and houses that are out there. Absolutely, we were able to provide fine art insurance coverage for those. And sometimes it's very creative. Just to give you an example, by the way, I went and looked at this one time when I was doing some market research. So it'd been a few years, but I looked in the state of Illinois or found a directory of historic sites and houses in the state of Illinois. And there were 600,000 or 600 of them plus. So close to a thousand, probably, if you look at it. That's a pretty big marketplace in one state. So think about that from your perspective, the accounts are out there. But how do you insure those? And we have a great question here that I want to read from Julie, which is, she asked, you know, be curious to understand how places like the Hearst Castle in California or the mansions in Newport, Rhode Island, are insured. She's going to be going up there to look at those. At some point, she has a trip planned up there. And how does that work? How do you insure those? And it is an interesting approach. It's a combined approach. So historic home, which is designed to preserve the way that house was at a particular time and place, whether that's the home of a very wealthy person, or it's the home of an important historical figure. They're trying to preserve a moment in time. And so some of the objects in there may be valuable on their own, such as the artwork they have. Some of the objects in there may be valuable because their association with the owner of the piece. And some of the objects may be valuable in the sense that they're very hard or would be difficult to replace if lost or destroyed. And so you can probably, but you can insure all of those under a fine art policy. You just have to create a valuation that makes sense for that location. So you could say for the objects, for objects that have a known value or appraised value, you can insure them for appraised value. And then sometimes it's very helpful to look at it and say, well, how much of that is going to be objects of historical value or objects that have value because of the provenance of the objects. And so for those, you can say, well, we insure those on the current market value and appraisers help us to establish what that is. So do you necessarily have to establish that before loss? No, you could actually say, all right, we're going to insure everything in there at current market value. If there's a loss, we need a list and appraisers will help us establish what that value was, but you do need to make an estimate so you know what limit to put on the policy. And then in historic homes, what I, you know, when you talked about, and for those of you who have done your insurance broker training or insurance, you know, where you've studied the homeowner's form and they talk about contents coverage. And one of the ways to say is anything that, anything that shake, when you shake the house moves around as contents coverage. For fine art, we kind of get a little bit broader and I have worked with historic homes and historic societies where we've covered the architectural detail inside the house. So the molding, the wallpaper, the specialty woodwork, those kinds of things. In certain circumstances where they're well-maintained, you could probably establish a value or a limit for those and provide coverage separate and distinct from the actual building coverage or the property coverage that's on the house. That came into play. You can look over here on the bottom right screen. Remember, I talked about where the space shuttle went. That's the Intrepid Air and Space Museum here in New York. And it represents a very interesting kind of insurance case because, you know, they have hull insurance for the boat itself and that covers a lot of the superstructure of it. But what about all the things that are in that boat that are part of the historical fittings of it? The things that were there while it was at war in World War II and in Vietnam. What do those convert under? And actually it worked out that the museum form was a little better at covering some of those things along with the displays and the space shuttle and the SR-71 Blackbird they have on the deck. And the hull, when you look at those two policies together because of the very talented broker I was working with, we were able to do a fine art policy that fit with hull insurance for marine coverage. So use your insurance creativity when you're looking at things like historic sites and houses to figure that out. I will say you want to be careful that you don't end up covering too much. I've seen cases where you offer blanket coverage and then all of a sudden they come back and they have a loss to standard farm implements that were there and you're like, well, I didn't really want to cover the farm implements. And so let's move on. I've been on this slide for a little bit, but thank you very much for that question. It's very good. I hope I answered it. By the way, if any of you ever have any questions, I'm an IMUA resource. We have the Arts and Records Committee. You know, think about whether or not you have the opportunity to participate with the Arts and Records Committee, but you can always reach out to me as an IMUA resource for clarification on things. Oh, I gotta click on this to make it. Okay, so museums are generally charitable, educational, or nonprofit organizations. Some of them are not really for profit, but are not necessarily charitable organizations that they can be privately funded. Their mission, which is interesting to think about this, is preservation and education. And one of the things I talk about with people is like if you go to the curator of a collection at an art museum and you say, well, how much does that penny worth? They will answer you something along the lines of, well, it's a very important piece in that particular period of the artist's work, and it represents their transition from this period to that period. And we're lucky to have it here. You know, the only other two excellent examples of it are at the AIC in Chicago. So that's how they answer it. They don't think about it in monetary terms, whereas we as insurers have to think about it in terms of dollars and cents because we're buying and selling risk. And so there can be a disconnect there. Just understanding who your client there is very helpful. And then the other thing is that the curatorial, the registrarial staff, the staff at museums, they really are wonderful people who take a great deal of pride in the collections of the museums. They care about them sometimes more than their own children, I swear. It's amazing. And so they are actually excellent risks because they do take such good care of the collections. They find it, it's a point of personal and professional pride for them. We're lucky that the losses that we have, we have almost no moral hazard or morale hazard with museums. We almost always, it's just pure fortuitous loss that causes us to have a claim in a museum. Things that we have to consider when we're looking at museums is what the main building complex is. So you gotta do your four walls insurance if you're in the Marine Underwriters, like, you know, where is it? And then are there any other locations? I can tell you that many museums have wonderful primary locations, but perhaps when it came to the secondary location, their funding was a little light. And so you have to make sure that secondary location is still up to standard. Most of the time it is, I'm just saying be aware of it. And do they use third-party offsite storage facilities? So I know I've got a bunch of baby boomers, I mean, not baby boomers, a bunch of Generation X Millennials on here. I'm not quite a baby boomer, I'm Generation X. I hope all of you recognize this movie. If you haven't seen it, that's Ferris Bueller's Day Off, I recommend you go see it. So really, really great seeing the museum there. An organization that I like to work with that can be helpful to you guys is the American Alliance of Museums, which is based in Washington, D.C. It represents more than 17,500 museums in the United States. They are a professional organization for museums and museum staff that has an accreditation process where museums do self-audit and agree to meet minimum standards and care and custody of the collection, how they educate, how they fund themselves, the type of security and locations they're gonna have, the ethical standards that they're gonna have. It really is a stamp of approval. Now, here's the hack that comes along with that. If you're gonna be an accredited member of the American Alliance of Museums, not all of them are accredited, but most of them are or are on their way to becoming accredited, they finish a document which is called the Standard Facilities Report. The Standard Facilities Report is an exhaustive survey of their location and their activities and their operations and their budget, and it puts it all into a single document. It tells you all about where the building is, how it's constructed, when it was constructed, when there were renovations, who's on staff, who's responsible for security, who's responsible for the care of the collection, all that information in one document, and they've already done it. So here's the amazing thing. That's an application. It is the best application you could possibly get. So if you have a museum and a broker that comes to you and says, I would like to insure this museum, I have an opportunity, what do you need from me? Should I fill out an application? We all know how much brokers love to get applications filled out. I'm gonna give them to you. I'm not making it, but you can take that step out and say, actually ask them for their Standard Facilities Report. We'll work with that. Okay. Next one, okay. Now let's talk about dealers and commercial galleries. And these are the people who are not in the business, not necessarily, although they do do it, is the preservation and public education. These are the people or organizations that are in the business of buying and selling art, of making a living off the sale of art. So they are, in general, commercial, for-profit enterprises, although there are some smaller ones that are not for profit for emerging artists that you'll find. But most of them, even the ones that say they aren't, are for-profit organizations. I bring this slide up and we say that high-end dealers will exhibit in spaces similar to museums. And I wanna make sure, I've noticed there's a disconnect in the public eye sometimes, a difference between a gallery and a museum. And some very high-end galleries, they sort of say, well, it's like a museum. It can appear that way. And very often they dress themselves up that way. But the purpose of the art there is different. It's not really about the preservation of the art. It is about creating a market and a market value for that art so they can sell it. Doesn't mean that they have moral hazards. Doesn't mean that they aren't good risks. It just means that they're approaching things differently. And even the way we value art in a museum is different than the way we would place a value on art in a gallery. So on most fine art, most museum fine art insurance forms, the value of the art is set at current market value because you don't wanna ask the museum, remember what I said about the curator. If you ask the value, they'll talk about it in terms of the artist's career. We don't wanna ask them to set values ahead of time because it number one, it'd be cost prohibitive to do that for everything in their collection, but number two, they don't really think about it that way. And so we give them current market value in most policies, which is to say when it's damaged, you ask an appraiser, well what would it be, what would it have been worth if it come to market, establish a value. For dealers, they're in the process of buying a work and selling it, so how much do you think they typically mark up for? And you can feel free to pop that into the chat question there, it's an unofficial question, but you know it's not always the same, but most of the time they're marking it up somewhere between 100 and 200 percent. I see 50 percent, which is a good guess, a lot of them do Julia, about 50 percent, but they really will mark it up up to as much as 200 percent or more. So what we as insurers have to do is find an evaluation that works for those galleries, and so we work with them saying we'll base the value on most fine art gallery, fine art forms, the value of the work will be based on your selling price, and that allows the dealer to pick a value that makes sense for them. Now they're purchasing that risk when they establish that value and have to buy a limit that meets the value, so you know they need to understand that they mark it up, if they're thinking about it in terms that aren't commercially viable, they're purchasing more risk than they should, but we do work with the dealer to do that. So some other things to consider, private and by appointment dealers only, there are people out there that are really more brokers and just sell one or two works very high-end, that's how they make their living. Many, most galleries will have some kind of off-site storage, and in urban areas like New York and Chicago or anywhere where you have street traffic, they may have storage in the basement, and so as an underwriter I encourage you to make sure you get that question answered, is there any below grade storage and where is it? Hurricane Sandy here in New York taught a lot of us lessons about the number of dealers that had basements that had the art collection in it, so when the water came across the street and filled up the basement, you had some really serious losses in a few places. And again, a little bit more about what I've been talking about, is it a gallery and museum or is an art dealer a studio? And I just encourage you to make sure that you always understand the difference between the two when you're when you're looking at covering them or providing a quote, making sure that you're not treating a gallery like a museum and you're not treating a museum like a gallery because they're different people. Alright, so private and corporate collections, and this is very often I think the first thing that comes to mind when people think about art insurance is are these private collections? So high net worth individuals that have significant real estate holdings and homes and they want to decorate that with art, and so what you're what you're looking for is you need to understand where and how you're insuring it. It's different to insure art at a primary residence, a main collection, than a secondary residence. Not uncommon at all to have a collector who has a house in the city and then you know a ski house and the ski house may be very different risk than their apartment in downtown New York or midtown New York. Actually I'm here in the financial district now in New York and it's really changed over the past 20 years. I don't know if you guys know this but it's a very residential area now so when I used to think of I being my age I think of downtown New York being the business district but it's much more residential neighborhood now. It's kind of nice. Then also office buildings and you know if you're the owner of a company you have an office building it's not uncommon that people who do that will have part of their collection in their office. So you know thinking about all the different locations that you need to insure a private collection and creating a policy that works across all of those locations and it may be a blanket form of some kind. Then finally storage locations which is an interesting topic for us on for private collections. So there's an old joke in the in the art community which is the definition of a collector is someone who keeps buying even after they run out of wall space. Many collectors have more than they can possibly exhibit at any given time. They need storage for it. They run out of closets in their house or they don't have appropriate closets in their house and so there's a rather big industry in the United States of fine art storage facilities which are these very high-end storage locations that have HVAC systems and security and all of that. The problem for us in the insurance industry is that when they do their job really well collectors want to use them and then you get a lot of your insurance storing in the same location. So one of these to be at the high talk about it here in New York the highest concentration of values in New York for fine art it's not the Metropolitan Museum of Art or MoMA it's actually one of the storage locations the fine art storage locations in Queens has the highest concentration of values because so many private collectors are using it for their excess art or for using it for art services where they get conservation done or that goes through there in transit to other places so always important to make sure you know where all the locations are and you know your aggregation as it has an underwriting. All right any questions on private on oh you know what I didn't talk about I didn't talk about valuation for private collections that may be further down but private collections let's talk about anyway because it came to mind with private or oh here's another question I have for you think about this and put answers why do you think corporations collect art why do you think banks or big corporations have art collections what do you think they're doing when they do that and I'll wait for some answers on that and then we'll talk about that in a second. For private policies or corporate collection policies very often we're looking at a scheduled value and there are many different ways to approach that I just want to go over them really quickly with you guys one is just to say okay get an appraisal done and we'll ensure for the appraised value. Now appraisals are valid for only a little while afterwards you know if it's a contemporary collection maybe they need to have it reappraised every year if it's a collection of very old antiques or you know 19th century art and earlier maybe they only they only need to get a new appraisal once every three to five years so it doesn't necessarily have to be done right away but what I'm saying is that value is not fixed and so is there a way to address that well yeah you can ensure private collections on a blanket basis current market value like a museum we're talking about or you can put it in some kind of inflation garden for those of you who have been in the high net worth arena and done private collections there almost all those policies usually have current market value up to 150 percent of the scheduled value something like that to manage the inflation. See we had some stuff come in here yeah tax breaks is excellent I like that's the first answer investment and yeah a tax-free way to spend their money that's exact thank you very much Julie you really hit on something there art is a store of value and there for a lot of corporations where it used to be they did it because they felt like it was important part of their corporate personality to have an art collection and show that they were more of a thinking organization so if you're a bank and you want to show that you're smart bank you'll have contemporary art but also art can be a store of value and for a lot of corporations that those art collections are a balance sheet item again remember I was talking about property the property insurers don't necessarily want to cover the art undiscovered premium if you're working with a part of your insurance office that's doing insurance for large corporations can you separate out that art collection that store of value insured under in the marine with better terms perhaps rating this more favorable to the insured and get it out of the property premium and away from that big property deductible and have a better valuation clause and even have a better claims process should there be claims do you really want the guy who's adjusting the you know the damage to the company cars to also then come and adjust the damage to the company art I also think that banks and corporations collect art as a way of signaling you know to either to be impressive or imposing or to show that they're not quite as you know corporate as they actually are there you go that's pretty diplomatic might be recorded I think I am okay so let's move on to forms and coverages we're gonna talk about the forms that we use I think I've covered some of this before so if I go back over stuff you know I apologize but stick with me this is an example of an old insurance policy here that's always I thought this is kind of interesting where way insurance used to work was that you just have a standard form and then you hand wrote stuff in or you type stuff in as opposed to the way we do it now where everything is online okay so when you send some things to consider about museums what am I what are you insuring there so I always ask myself the three questions is who am I insuring where am I insuring what am I insuring I can answer those three questions I can probably come up with a reasonable you know policy for the person that has submitted it so things to consider about what's your insurance so the permanent collection that is as we think of it you know the things that are in the that belong to the museum that they own so they're permanent the permanent collection which can include paintings or antiques whatever it is temporary loans now almost all museums some of the small ones may not but most of the major reasons in the world trade they take in temporary loans they loan things out to other museums so you're gonna be insuring property of others that will that are on loan to that museum and so if you're gonna loan a painting to the see I was trying to think of a museum that I haven't brought up as an example yet so Los Angeles County Museum of Art you would want to know that they have insurance for it you would want to know that insurance includes coverage for temporary loans and the valuation that it has and it includes earthquake insurance so that's something that they all have is they have coverage for incoming loans because you wouldn't loan necessarily loan a piece to the museum that didn't have coverage for it then transit and as I mentioned earlier art is mobile property even though most of it doesn't move a lot of it is in transit all the time you look I see I have a picture of an airplane there I think a lot you know there's a conception you know there's an idea that art travels around on trucks and it does locally but did you know that most of the art that shipped around the United States other than some of it which goes on these on these long-distance truck transits most of it is shipped in domestic aircraft and so when you when you buy a painting when you have a painting you're sending it from here to Chicago they very well may put it on a wide-body plane in the cargo hold which is interesting when you consider all the things that could happen on an airport tarmac a lot of the very good art logistics firms actually have agreements with the Federal Aviation Commission so that they're the FAA because they want to make sure that they have a direct line to get on to the plane rather than having things sitting out on the tarmac and get run over by trucks and all of that so then unnamed locations and what what unnamed locations means at any time that something's in transit there's an opportunity for it to go somewhere where you didn't expect it to be so that coverage is included and then legal liability and this is one of the less understood coverages that appears on the museum form in the United States legal liability what legal liability it's not liability like we're thinking about where somebody slips and falls this is a situation where when things are on loan or for whatever reason a museum is has a piece that gets damaged and they didn't think that they were covered they didn't think it was on their insurance well there is a coverage in most museum policies that says we'll give you the the legal liability will give you the coverage for the legal fees to figure out whether or not you indeed were on risk for that so you pay the legal fees and then if it turns out you were not on risk then it's done or if it turns out you were on risk then it becomes a temporary loan or property of others in their care custody or control and then you can use the standard limit for and then international exposure then why not have a picture of the Statue of Liberty or a statue of the Eiffel Tower if you're gonna have an international exposure um I what I say to people is you know that I think when I like to say that when art crosses borders soldiers don't you know the international trade among museums with art and artifacts and that cultural exchange is extremely important to to a civilized society and we want to facilitate that in any way we can that doesn't interfere with the profitability of our companies it's very easy to do these museums are extremely conscientious and some of the most rewarding parts of my career have been assisting and major international exhibitions that have gone across borders to lots of different parts of but do understand profitability the company you know not all locations are created equal and so you do have to do your your due diligence when you're underwriting that all right so with that in mind there is something I wanted to bring up in this this discussion is something called the US arts and indemnity program it's an important program for the US government and it's there to facilitate cultural exchange between nations it provides free insurance free indemnification for art exhibitions coming into the US from outside the United States it they what they do is they apply for it they give a list of the objects how much they're worth or what they're valued at and put that application in to the US government to the sorry NEA the National Endowment for the Arts and then if it's approved they get free insurance for it basically it's not truly insurance but what it is is the promise of the US government on behalf of Congress to pay for any damages it's been extremely successful it's helped us get a lot of really great exhibits here in the United States so you know what does that mean for us oh so I have some nice pictures here we have picture of the first Congress and then you know folk hero Anthony Bourdain who you know if you guys haven't seen a show I suggest you watch it and get out there and see the world and be you know interested in the cultures that you can find what is what does this do for us from an inland marine insurance perspective the US arts and indemnity program is extremely inflexible once they apply for something they can't make any changes to it so if something gets dropped or added to the coverage they are not able to change that and so we has an opportunity we as underwriters have an opportunity to fill the gaps on that whether the the values are not correct and they need sort of excess insurance or if they have objects that got added in later and they need to add those in it gives us an opportunity to write insurance policies and I've done this many times where I've provided coverage in conjunction with it with the arts and artifacts and indemnity program excuse me I've been talking for a little while it's a great picture by a sergeant here of Madame X and I put her on there she's at the Met this painting really dominates the room if you've ever seen it they wanted to loan it from the Met to the San Francisco Museum of Art and as it turned out excuse me not the San Francisco the de Young Museum in San Francisco and the de Young Museum didn't have enough earthquake earthquake coverage to bring this in on loan and they were actually able to get Congress to change and say that for certain domestic loans they could use the the arts indemnity program which they did this exhibit was there about 15 years ago was a big hit to have some of these works from the East Coast the United States show up in San Francisco I got a little chat here okay so which museum had the highest attendance numbers in 2024 for the u.s. they're already brought off the Louvre what do you what do you guys think which which u.s. museum had the highest attendance this year well just I like to choose her Julie you actually kind of you kind of covered it there so and I like all these people are saying the Met moment one of my favorites indeed it is the Met it was the the museum that had the highest attendance this I used to have the Smithsonian is the answer for this but the reason I don't is because that number was really the Smithsonian as a whole rather than the individual institutions so yeah most recently coming out of code with the Met has had a lot of attendance I will say that the lockdowns and kovat really did impact museum viewership and attendance and they're starting to recover that now but they're not all the way there and you know those museums need your attendance they want to see you there so if you haven't been to a museum recently please do go out try to enjoy them I tell people don't just go and try and see everything I like to go to museums for about two hours have a few things in mind to see and then make sure that I get you know food snacks or a drink along the way so the identity program has some limitations to it it can cover up to about 1.2 billion dollars per exhibition and can only have about 10 million dollars worth of coverage in any given time that's because the Congress has to pay that out so they figured 10 billion dollars is sort of the maximum they could have on hand so there is opportunity for us as insurers to when the indemnity program is not able to meet or is beyond their limits for us to come in and provide coverage you'll get a copy of this but you can look it up if you need to see more about that okay so let's talk about some things to consider with with fine art dealers checking on our timing here we're doing pretty well yeah good about 15 ish more minutes before we'll take a quick break and kind of you know cruise on through to the end of this presentation um things to consider with dealers and and the special circumstances circumstances around when our dealer coverage so owned property so do dealers own property yes they do a lot of them will buy inventory and have it on hand and they're the full owner of it but they do also have property of others if you think about that dealers who take things on consignment I don't know if any of you have ever sold anything on consignment or bought something on consignment you know they take it in and then they'll make a promise to the person who's selling and say okay I'm gonna sell it and when it sells I'm gonna pay you X number of dollars and I'm gonna keep the rest so you have two different types of inventory there and you need to make sure that there's coverage for both of those the valuation tends it's usually different on most forms the valuation on property they own as I mentioned earlier is based on their sales price or sometimes on a purchase price and then the value of property of others is on consignment is based on that consigned value so if a dealer has a work on consignment the valuation clause may read for works on consignment the value should be the stated consigned value plus 15% or plus 10% or plus 20% depends on on what's appropriate for that dealer what does that mean that means that you're making the owner whole a consigner and you're covering the expenses of the dealer but not necessarily the profit because as you know an insurance we can indemnify but we're not covering profit that's not our job do they have transit coverage yes they have a lot of transit coverage as an underwriter you need to understand as much as you can about how museums do or excuse me about how dealers are doing their transit who they're using you know it's not uncommon for a dealer you know in the big city to hop into an Uber to take it or to a client for them to see it or for them to do some of their own transit. If they're doing that, you need to talk to them about it, make sure they understand that you understand what they're doing. I highly recommend, I spend most of my time recommending to people that we insist that people use professional fine arts packers and shippers. It's not always the case, but that's what I like. Can you use FedEx and UPS to ship fine art? You can to an extent, just understanding that that is not their specialty. That is not what they deal in and that artwork is going to be in the same transit as the Amazon boxes and everything else that gets sent by FedEx, so be careful with that. They need unnamed location coverage, same thing, things sometimes get to where you didn't expect them to be. Legal liability coverage is not necessarily part of what dealers do, although I have seen other policies, or are dealers international? Some of them are, the very high end of them, but a lot of them really are just operating domestically and the coverage territory on a fine art dealer policy may be restricted to North America. So make sure that you as an underwriter understand what you're offering, whether or not they need international, if they don't need it, are you restricting it? Make sure the broker is communicating to the dealer that they are going to, what their opportunities are. And yeah, Griffin, thanks, I'm glad you recognized Portlandia. Yeah, this is just one of the best part, I love Portlandia also, but if you ever have a chance to see the art gallery episodes with Portlandia, it's well worth going to. I can tell you that his portrayal of an art dealer is closer to the truth than most people think. So absolutely, just go see this, Jeff Goldblum, you can look it up on YouTube, Jeff Goldblum, art dealer, and watch how he talks. All right, where are we? On to the next one. Okay, things to consider for private corporate collections. Generally they own the artwork that is covering a property of others is not necessarily covered under that. So you're usually working with artwork owned by whoever it is that's applying for the insurance. I only say usually because I'm always surprised when people come up with a new idea. They do have transit covered also, although it's less frequent than either museums or dealers. If you think about it, they're not going to be moving things around as much. There's unnamed locations coverage, again, because things can end up where you don't expect them to be. One of the things that we have with private and corporate collections is newly acquired. So if you're a collector and you're on vacation, you find a piece you just have to have, or you're at an art show in Miami and you have an opportunity to buy a piece that you wanted, is that covered under your policy? Well, it can be. Most policies have something like a newly acquired clause where they say that newly acquired property up to the value of the policy or up to 25% of the limit of the policy is automatically covered. And we used to have in there like up to 90 days. I think that's gone by the wayside and said it's automatically covered and reported to us when you can. I was trying to think, is there some other things in there that I wanted to include about private collections? Not so much right now. We covered a little bit of it before. Some of the things to be concerned about, I definitely encourage people to try and figure out who they are insuring. We have a lot of KYC, know your customer requirements here in the United States. And so when you get a submission for somebody, you can't tell who they are. I always Google whoever it is that we're going to be insuring to make sure that we're in compliance and we're not dealing with a fake or erroneous individual. One of the things about private and corporate collections, and we talked about this earlier, store of wealth. When I started in this business, if someone was using art as collateral, we would not insure it. We'd be very hesitant to insure it and there are very few lending institutions that would use art as collateral. That's completely changed. Almost all the major banks in the United States now have an art lending practice. Most of the major collectors have unlocked the equity in their art in some way through loans where they can take a loan and then invest that money or buy more artwork. So it's not unusual. We just need to know about it ahead of time so we can do the appropriate things with additional name insured, make sure that the value that we're insuring it for is appropriate. It can be that the desire to insure it for an inflated value based on what they need for the loans, and we don't necessarily want to participate in that. All right. So we've gotten through some of the basic policy types and types of accounts that we have in our insurance. And now we're going to talk about what we're insuring for. And I think you guys heard me say this earlier, a typical in learning policy for all causes of direct physical loss, except for what's excluded. So they're all risk policies. All risk is not everybody loves that term, but it's an industry term. The idea is that rather than having a listed name of perils that we're covering, we choose to pick the perils we don't want to cover on these policies and state those and then cover everything else, which leaves it very open. So it gives us the opportunity that we don't miss anything. But we're covering fire, we're covering accidental damage, we're covering theft. Quick show of hands, or if you guys want to put it, what do you think the most common cause of loss for fine art is? I'll give you a hint. It's not theft. Type it in. I'll keep going. So we're covering all those things we expect to cover. Some of the things that come up, water, fire, flood, oh, Griffin got it. It's transit. Good job. Water damage. I like that. Inland marine underwriters. You know, as we all know, the inland marine underwriter, what do they say is underwrite the fire, pay the flood, you know, or pay the water. And that is very common. But transit coverage, transit damage and transit is the most common one. All right. So cat perils, you know, non-diversifiable catastrophic perils, we have to consider those. And I'm going to encourage you in your underwriting to think about it maybe a little bit differently, or at least be able to have this discussion with your company. Because I know that insurance companies, as they should be, are very conscientious and should be, because, you know, those are balance sheet items that we are in the business of being able to pay our claims. And we don't want to get involved in situations where, you know, the company is going to have an incident that, you know, we're not. But our first obligation is to our shareholders, making sure that we can pay our claims. So with flood, earthquake, wind and terrorism, you have the opportunity for a lot of non-diversifiable exposure, a lot of damage. You know, when the World Trade Center fell in the United States, at the time, the estimated fine art losses were over $100 million, which was a little bit of a surprise to people. They didn't realize quite how much was in those towers. You know, so we needed to think about those things. Doesn't mean we can't cover the cat perils. And for instance, flood, really good one. Let's look and be really careful, you know, the government provides us with flood maps. Art doesn't really belong in a flood zone. So, you know, maybe avoid those. But like earthquake and wind, can we address those? Yeah, we can. And, you know, there are ways to mitigate against earthquake loss. There's ways to put things in structures where wind won't be as much of an issue, terrorism, you know, some museums, but a lot of private risk isn't really a greater terrorism risk. It's not in high terrorism zones. So one thing I will say is that I like to underwrite how the art is displayed and used along with the cat perils to see if there's really an exposure. So that like with flood, if I know that the artwork is all on the second floor and above and not stored in the basement, maybe I have a different flood exposure than that building itself has. And then breakage. For a time there were exclusions for breakage and I've actually seen it. I still see it to this day where some policies, particularly standard homeowners policies will exclude breakage. Most fine art forms, if not all fine art forms at this point, don't exclude breakage. I would be surprised to see it on a fine art specific form, but it definitely, it can happen. But is breakage excluded? Not usually. And so fragile objects, you know, rate them and give them deductibles and think about them as fragile objects rather than excluding the peril they're most susceptible to. Also, you know, the way things are displayed make a big difference. And so if something's fragile and it's displayed properly on a big plinth and probably secured to the bottom of it, it's not usually a problem. Okay. Some exclusions. And I'll get to why I have this picture down here at the bottom in a second. So these are pretty much the standard exclusions. You find these on almost all the policies. You know, none of those are a surprise. These are inland marine exclusions. So you guys are familiar with these. The deterioration of moth and vermin, gradual deterioration is particularly important to art. I have seen some policies that no longer have the moth and vermin exclusions on them. I'm not a particular fan because that is a problem and it's not one that we can necessarily underwrite to. War nuclear damage, damage to the repair restoration process. Employee designs, mysterious disappearance, you know, government seizure, which is more of a problem than people realize, you know, where the government says, actually, we need to take this. And that has to do with cultural property. And you read the news in the United States, there's been more than one instance in the United States where somebody has something that was looted or somehow came into the country without the proper papers and it has been seized by the government. Generally not a covered cause of loss. And then the inventory shortage. And that has to do with galleries, not museums. And that really only appears on dealer forms. And that's to say that we have to have a known cause of loss. Galleries used to deal very much in sort of handshakes and cash, sometimes trades. And so an inventory shortage might indicate a loss or might just indicate that they had bad record keeping. We're not really in the business of ensuring record keeping. Okay. Those of you who were paying attention, you notice I skipped intentional acts in the first read through. And that's because I want to show you an interesting case for our underwriting breaks. If you go look up here, the guy at the bottom who broke that vase, that was a display of works by Ai Weiwei down in Miami, probably over 10 years ago now. And a patron came into the museum that was displayed, picked up one of Ai Weiwei's vases that he had put on display and dropped it to the ground. That was absolutely a covered cause of loss. They arrested the guy and it was an insured claim. Then you go here to Ai Weiwei, and that's the artist down there in the lower right. And what he's got there is a Chinese Neolithic pot. And he was taking a photograph of himself dropping that pot. And that is actually his art in a sense was that he showed creative, he was doing experiments in creative destruction and the exhibition of destruction. Which if you think about it, if you're doing this in communist China, may or may not get you on a blacklist. It did get him arrested for a while. But what is that? That's an intentional act of destruction. So the guy at the bottom there does it, that's covered, Ai Weiwei does it intentionally and it's not covered. So intentional acts are not covered by the insurance, which as always art surprises you and comes up with ways to challenge your thoughts on it. All right, some other provisions that you may see in insurance policies to be aware of and terms. I talked about the newly acquired clause already. Lost buyback, which is to say that very often the policy will include if there's partial loss or damage, the insured has the ability to buy back the damaged property. There can be a lot of settlements with partial losses insurance and the ability to buy back or if something is stolen or lost and then recovered, who has the right to purchase it back. I'm going to get through this slide and then we're going to have a break and we're going to, like I said, glide on into the end. Then we have wall-to-wall as a term you hear or nail-to-nail and that's just a way of describing transit for art, which means that it's normal course of transit and the metaphor is as soon as it comes down off of the wall, then that's where the transit starts and it ends when it gets back to its normal resting place on the wall. Schedule versus blanket limit and I just want to clarify what these terms are. We often refer to blanket limits and fine art and limiting in general. It's not really blanket over locations, although it can be. It can be blanket limit may mean that we haven't scheduled the individual covered property, but it can also mean that it's also coverage over multiple locations for the same property, which includes all that transit coverage. So it's slightly ambiguous language that we need to work through in our underwriting process. The coverage territory. Many fine art insurance policies have a coverage territory worldwide or are silent on the coverage territory, which technically means worldwide, although since we're entering a new space age, maybe it means in space also. Good picture of the Christie's auction room there in New York when they're selling. If you haven't been to an auction, I recommend going to one. They're a lot of fun, even if you're not buying and they're open to the public. Most of them are open to the public. So if you're in a big city, go to one. If you're in a small city, find your small local auction house and go watch the sales. It's great. And you may find a treasure that you just didn't know you couldn't live without and come home with something. All right. So the things we think about when we're underwriting fine art, I'm going to do this slide and we'll take a break. This has to do with the objects themselves, and we do need to think about them from an underwriting perspective. But it's more like a tick list rather than, you know, we're going to put specific terms in port. So fire, you know, fires do happen. What kind of building are we in? What kind of fire protection we have? Packing and handling, is it professionals? Is it appropriate to the work itself? Who's doing the transit? As I mentioned earlier, theft is an issue, but not a huge issue. That's because it's very difficult to sell stolen art. Cat perils. Again, I covered that earlier where maybe we can address the perils themselves rather than excluding them altogether or avoiding them altogether. Water damage, underwrite the fire, pay the water. I love the fact that you guys said flood. And then vandalism, malicious mischief. Real quick on that, that is becoming more of a problem than it used to be. Particularly the outdoor art or art on public display, people are using it as a sounding board for their political views. We need to be careful about that. You know, we're not excluding it yet. We haven't had any really major issues of damage with the exception of some of the outdoor sculpture that got destroyed in the past five or six years. But mostly in museums, we've not had really serious damage yet. I'd like to share this with your clients and, you know, what is the outcome of that kind of vandalism? What I've said in my museum partners is that, you know, I cover them for vandalism. If their patrons come in and vandalize work for political interests, you know, the policy is there to make the insured whole. Do the repairs, get the work back to where it should be, pay the damages, then loss the value. Then it's my job as an insured to subrogate against the people who vandalized it. And if they're poor, broke students, I don't care. I'm going to pursue subrogation and restitution of the money that we paid to the museum. And then where is storage? How is it stored? Who else is storing there? And lastly, do we have the appropriate valuation on the policies? Is our valuation appropriate to how the art is being used? Is it for cultural? Is the art for educational preservation? Is it being sold or is it for collection value or is it being used for a loan? All right. You can put your answers in and we'll talk about this when we get back. Let's get back at just past four o'clock and we can answer the all important question. Did Han Solo shoot first or did Greedham beat him to the draw? Okay. Well, I'll see you guys all in about eight or nine minutes. Allie, are you there? I'm here, Andrew. All right. How are we doing? We're good on time? Tech's all working? We're doing great. Okay. We have some really great questions that have come in. I've got a leader right now, but it's not a case. It's not, you know, it's not a done deal. Got a leader. I have one question that came in from Sarah during the break. For transit, is it still inland marine when the transit is outside the U.S. international as opposed to marine? And it's a really, really good question. It's a very good insurance question. I like it. So for fine art, most international transit of fine art is done on wide body aircraft and not by boat and stays on the inland marine form, is covered by the inland marine form rather than a marine form. Now there are some roll on, roll off container shipping and some ocean transit that's going on that I've always been interested, you know, we cover them on the inland marine form, but we do sometimes add the institutes of war clause and some of the other Lloyd's marine clauses to the policy in that case. I've always been really interested and really concerned, and it hasn't come up with ocean transit though, is the baritrary, right? Information on that? Like, so for those of you, I believe I got the right term, baritrary, but in ocean cargo, the insurance is shared by all of the cargo on the ship, and when one of those containers gets knocked overboard, actually everybody on the ships insurance kind of covers that one container, and if you have a really, really valuable art shipment on a boat that is being, are you going to be on the hook for a much larger portion of that particular loss than you thought you were? But in my experience, we've been insuring the art on the inland marine form as it does transatlantic or international transit by airplane, like I said, like 90% of the time it's by aircraft. Great question. Thank you very much for that, sir. I hope I answered it, and there may be people out there more knowledgeable in the marine space than I am, and if you are, please chime in and let us know. We had general average, yeah, so the general average part of it is what that coverage is. Thank you. Oh, I got another question from Griffin. Okay, let's see, back to tracking, backtracking to private collections, do you have advice on how to identify a legitimate appraisal? Oh, wow, man, I did not send this question ahead of time. That's great. Thank you for asking that. Yes, I do, so, and this is part of the issue that's out there, let me show my door, a little bit of noise coming on from the HVAC system, appraisals and what legitimate and good art appraisals are very important, and the way that we identify the ones that we can work with is that there are a couple of appraisal societies that are working in the United States, art appraisal societies. There's the American Association of Appraisers, the International Society of Appraisers that do art appraisals. And we look for membership in those organizations or accredited membership in those organizations. And membership and accredited membership require USPAP certification. USPAP certification is the government standard for appraisals. Those things together help us identify appraisers who've done their study, because you can actually do an appraisal without having any certification in it whatsoever. So step one, what are they a member of, and do they have their USPAP certification? Number two is, are they appraising in an area of work where they have expertise? Do we have a baseball card appraiser doing American art, or do we have an American art appraiser doing contemporary European art? You want to make sure that they're doing the area that they have an expertise in. They can be generalist appraisals, but most appraisers have some area of expertise. And then we're looking for a statement of purpose in the appraisal that says, I'm appraising this for tax purposes, for estate purposes, for insurance purposes. And then we want to look and make sure that we have the items identified appropriately and that there's a single value stated for it. And then there's some methodology for establishing that value, whether that's comparables, auction history, or some other type of work, if it's a more specialized type of object that they're establishing those values. And then finally, with all of that in there, what was the last part of that that I wanted to tell you about appraisals? Oh, that the appraiser has no financial interest in the works. So if there are people, you can be an appraiser and an art dealer, and if you're appraising work that you're selling, you've got too many interests in that object. So I know that was a lot of information, but very good question. Thank you. Thank you for asking that. Generally speaking, look for the American Association of Appraisers or the International Society of Appraisers Accreditation, and that covers the rest of those bases. I love it. We got a lot of good answers on the chat question here. For those of you who are not Star Wars fans, I apologize for the Star Wars trivia. I happen to believe that Han did fire first. It has to do with whether or not you believe in Han's, the part of Han's character that wouldn't allow him to fire first, but I think he was enough of a rogue to know that the only way to beat Greedo was to beat Greedo. It also depends on which version of the film you're watching. All right. So we're going to move fast here. If you want to interrupt, just send me a question. I'm not going to go into great detail as we go forward, because I'm trying to get this done a little bit ahead of time. As I said, I have a Christmas party I'd like to go to. I know you guys all have stuff you want to do. Fire is a real issue. We talked about perils earlier. This is a picture of the Museum of Natural History in Sao Paolo, Brazil, and it did burn to the ground. This does happen. It doesn't happen very often, but we definitely want to underwrite for fire and make sure that we have adequate protection, adequate water supply, fire department, looking for whether or not every location that is listed on the schedule, the schedule of locations actually has all of that. The primary home may be very different than the secondary home. The example I sometimes use with this, in Aspen, there's a Red Mountain Road, which is an amazing residence on it, these 8,000-square-foot ski shacks that people have up there that they like to put art in with amazing views. The problem is the fire trucks can't get up there. So they really don't have adequate protection for fire. So from an insurance perspective, it's a very difficult ride. Historic sites are another one where you're dealing with older buildings, different types of construction techniques, particularly when you're dealing with twisted masonry frame buildings, totally different fire exposure, but art is in those locations. You need to look at those, make sure that they've done everything they can to protect them, make sure that it is still a good risk, even though it's an historic site. All right, packing and handling. Things to think about that. We can't be experts in packing and handling. I've been doing this for many years. I still depend on the experts in the area. The questions we can ask is, does the packer and handler understand the medium of the piece and are they packing it for where it's going? So do they understand the specific needs of the piece, do they understand where it's going, and is the packing appropriate for that? And you can make a judgment of that. You can ask somebody you know who's an expert and say, is this right for that? If you're sending something to Europe in an aircraft, is this the right crate? Can it go in the soft frame? Is it going just across town? Maybe it only really needs what they call a shadow box around it so that it can make that transit. Very often it's a question of cost with this type of thing. Sometimes you're having to use your insurance stick to say, you know what, you're going to do the right thing because I have you on insurance and we don't feel that you're doing what we've asked you to do. There are a lot of great fine art logistics firms out there, if you guys don't know them. Firms like Gander and White and Crozier and Wovo and Cadoga Tate, Masterpiece, who are some of the other ones that are, I know I'm going to forget some and I like them all, US Art, that all do a great job. And getting to know somebody there and understanding what they do is actually as an underwriter I think is an important thing to do, just as you would with any other line of business that you're writing is figuring out who your experts are. If you don't know anybody in that area, again, I'm an IMUA resource and I'm happy to help you with introductions with some of the members on our Arts and Records Committee. So then transit, understanding what's being shipped, condition reports are really important. Condition reports basically when something's packed, somebody looks at it and says, these are the existing issues. When it's unpacked, they say, these are the existing issues. If there's a difference, you know that it happened in transit. Very important to ask for that so you know who's on risk, who's doing the packing, as I said before, what the transportation, mode of transportation, not all transportation is going to be the same in all places, I love this picture. And then whether or not it's domestic, across town, overseas, how often, you know, how far. We do help with route planning and talking to the logistics companies about how they're going to go about it. I can tell you that we get a lot of pushback from some companies, others like fine. But you know, like one time I tried to help plan the route for a very valuable shipment in excess of $100 million, and the logistics company basically said, you know, you're either going to let us do it or hire somebody else. I've had enough faith in them to say, okay. And then environmental safeguards, you know, if you're shipping from Art Basel Miami Beach back to New York in the first week of December, and you're leaving 75 and humid to 35 and humid or whatever it is we have out there today, you know, you need to make sure that you have the right environmental safeguards for that shipment. As I said before, theft is not a huge issue. It's hard to sell stolen art, but look at the protective systems, the things that can be done to help prevent it. I will tell you that their Art Loss Register, our recovery group are both great about helping recover stolen and missing art. The FBI has a stolen art group. And then at the IMUA annual meeting, we're going to have another group talking to us. They're a former FBI that has started a group here in the U.S. about tracking and recovering stolen art. So there's a lot of resources out there to help us track and recover, but also they're also going to be talking about hardening of targets, you know, helping museums become making it more difficult for people to steal from them. This is a real quick, this sort of story. This is a Henry Moore, weighs about 4,000 pounds. You would think now you can't really steal that. Well, it was in a public park and they backed up a flatbed tow truck to it, put a chain around it, pulled it up onto the bed and drove off. And the only reason they figured out sort of where and what had happened to it is because they found small pieces of it because it had been cut up and sold for scrap. So you take a $7 million sculpture and cut it down for a couple hundred thousand in bronze scrap and somebody took a big hit on the insurance on that one. Be mindful of the cap heralds, you know, like I personally, I think flood can be avoided. Earthquake is something that you can mitigate for with fine art in various ways. Terrorism simply understanding, you know, that where and when it might happen can help you. Wind and tornado, wealthy people, art follows money. Wealthy people like to live on the coast. Therefore you have art and valuable property on the coast. I think it's very hard to avoid the wind and flood or wind and tornado, but maybe we can look at the structures and where we are and help to people to more effectively protect their art in those areas. This has been around for a while. I think we've kind of settled this, but there used to be sort of, you know, people said, well, you don't want sprinklers because the sprinklers can malfunction and do more harm than good. I'm not a believer in that. The way that modern sprinkler systems work, they're there for fire suppression to give the fire department a chance to get there and it's not, when the sprinkler goes off, it's not the whole floor of sprinklers that goes off. It's just the area right where the sprinkler has been triggered, that one and the one next to it. So it's going to be a lot less damage than you would think. And then also, you know, we have the ability to do a lot with damage, work that's been damaged by water as opposed to ashes. So, you know, I think, you know, with sprinkler systems, we definitely like to see those in place. There are some things like rare books that maybe the sprinkler system is not appropriate. Maybe it's an inert gas system. So having people understand that and think about it ahead of time, maybe you can help your insurance decide on the best fire suppression for them. Vandalism and malicious mischief. This is Michelangelo's Pieta, which is in the Vatican, St. Peter's Basilica in Rome and many years ago, a lunatic with a sledgehammer attacked it. It's very difficult to prevent that individual one-off lunatic. There's not much we can do about it. And we were talking about the Mona Lisa earlier. They've done so much to protect it from the vandalism and they have to, that it really actually diminishes the individual experience with the painting, which is too bad. So we want to, as insurers, in my opinion, if we can do it profitably, be able to provide the ability for our museum and public, our clients who publicly display art to allow the general public in that area. But perhaps there are things we can do, like physical barriers and stanchions that don't interrupt the viewer's experience with the art. And then maybe with artwork that's more politically or religious or culturally contentious to provide other types of security around it. Storage, there's different grades of fine art storage. The biggest problem we have with it right now is that the companies that do it really well, the whole industry has exposure issues. And so like I said, some of these fine art storage facilities in New York, it's very difficult to get insurance there because there's so many other people with insurance there already. We'll have other, we're going to have other presentations on fine art storage and best practices. So I encourage you to check back in on those. We talked about these valuations. The only one we didn't really do is actual cash value, which doesn't really apply to artwork. As a matter of fact, there's an old story about that, which is, so actual cash value is the replacement cost after appreciation, like the sofa in your house after 10 years is worth less than you bought it for. I did hear of a case where a claims adjuster one time was trying to depreciate the value of an artwork because it was old. Somebody helped them understand that that actually was probably increasing the value of the art. But for the most part, we don't have to worry about that. Conservation studios are really interesting. They can do a tremendous amount of work to bring work back. And this is a nice example of that. Conservators are some of the most fun people that I work with. So I hope some of you have an opportunity to go out and get to see a conservation studio sometime. Constructive total loss. Sometimes art is completely lost. So we'll just go that it's done. Yeah, we talked about this earlier about when to do appraisals. It really depends on the type of art. Three to five years is a good rule of thumb in general, but for contemporary art, it really is more like every year. This is sort of the highlight, but we as insurers, sometimes we need to look at the loan agreements to make sure that they specifically state how our insurance is being applied to a loan. Condition reports I talked about already. Facility reports. I gave you that whole long thing about what a facility report is. Accession and deaccession. Those are the records that museums keep. And you need to make sure when you're insuring a museum that they have accession records. That will be in the facility report if they do. And then VARA, Visual Artists Rights Act. I encourage you to look that up. It gives living artists and artist trusts or artist foundations specific rights over how art is to be handled. And if you have an insurance claim with a living artist or an artist that has a trust in place, you may have to work with them directly. And I have done this. Work with them directly in the claims process to make sure that it gets handled properly. Because that artist has the ability to actually legally say what he wants you to do with the art. Whether or not you can restore it. Whether or not it should be destroyed. All those things. A little chat. What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I need your answers on that, okay? And we are, man, we are almost at the end. All right. Somebody? Ah! There we go. Josh got it. There we go. Philip, for those of you who are not Monty Python fans, it depends on whether or not it's African or European. And if you have not seen Quest for the Holy Grail, Monty Python's Holy Grail, then you should go see that. Like Ferris Bueller. Okay. I'm not going to do the case study today. I think we kind of already did it. Covered this. One of the things I do want to say is, you know, there are museums in every city and town across the United States. Some of them are great, great institutions to be associated with. I encourage you to go out and see them. And then, you know, if you get the opportunity to look at the insurance on one, certainly they can be really advantageous rights for Inland Marine books of business. All right. Again, this is a case study on gallery, and I won't get into the details of it. I think we covered that pretty well. What did I want to cover on here? Oh, about transit claims. This was sort of in this case study, you see two transit claims. Just from my perspective as an underwriter, that's a lot. I don't expect, I mean, yeah, they can have claims, and they'll have transit claims, but if you see two transit claims and a single risk over the course of three to five years, I would consider that a lot. Art generally is a severity, not a frequency type of law situation. And then we talked about high net worth individuals in multiple locations already, so I won't get too far into that. Last question of the day. Are you wearing shoes? For those of you out here who have joined us remotely, I would like to know if you're wearing shoes. I can tell you I'm in the office today, so I am, but were I at home, it's very unlikely I would have actually put my shoes on before presenting to you guys. Yep. The no has it. I love it. The world has changed since we went to remote work. All right. So we have some references and resources for you here. We are, well, we're, you know, didn't get that much of a break. You can always reach out to me. This is my personal email. Like I said, you know, I'm an IMUA resource, provided it isn't something that I can't talk to you about. I'm always happy to answer questions on this line of business. I encourage those of you who want to to get involved with the arts and records. Got a question. You mentioned the Vatican. Where's your favorite place to visit? Where's your favorite place in the world to visit art? Also did you create the art behind you or by it? They're both very good questions. I have to say that, you know, my favorite place in the world for art is Italy and actually Venice because it is so deep and it's just every corner you go around there's something to look at. And then, you know, I love going to the Vatican also, which is a different kind of thing. I went to the Louvre for like the fourth time not too long ago and really enjoyed it. And then, you know, here in New York, we're lucky to have the Met and Chicago where we have the AIC and then a lot of other great institutions in the United States. It is part of what I do is when I travel around. So it really is just about everywhere and I'm super excited. I'm going to go back and get to see Notre Dame again. I hope this summer I'm going to get a chance to see it. And then the work that's behind me, actually, I mentioned art fairs, that piece was something that was being handed out at the Armory Show a few years ago. And it's a printout of a text art that was on for sale there. So it was kind of almost like a performance art piece. You had to sort of go talk to the artist and they would hand you the sheet. So I thought it fit well in this office when we went to the virtual world. So there's that one and then you can't quite see it. There's that one over there, that little one. That's a replica of Storm on the Sea of Galilee, which was stolen from the Gardner Museum. And the next art insurance class that we do, we'll talk about the Gardner Museum. And I love Florence too. It's just that I went to study, I studied in Venice when I was at university rather than Florence. Otherwise it would be Florence. So thank you very much for your time. Really do appreciate it. I'm giving a tie to Griffin and Julie for participation, although there was lots of great participation out there. Thank you so much. So I used to teach in person. I'm getting used to the idea that I can't see or talk to you guys, but hopefully I'll get to meet you in person and we'll go forward from there. Again, Arts and Record Committee, I highly recommend it to everybody. Again, go online and check out some of the e-learning opportunities that we've come up with. IMUA has lots and lots of great resources for in-library and underwriters, not just fine art, but everything else that we do in this sort of odd corner of the insurance universe. Thank you. Thank you so much, Andrew. And thank you for everybody for being so engaged today. This is always a very fun session. In the chat pod, I just put in a survey link. Please use the survey link to provide us with your feedback. We always look to our feedback to create future courses and education. So we'd love to hear from you. And Andrew, enjoy your Christmas party. Oh, isn't it exciting? It is the season. Thank you so much. Bye.

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