I'm Lillian Coulson, and I thank you for joining us today. On your screen, you'll see the Attendee Control Panel, which allows you to see who else is joining the webinar. And as you can see, we have a great turnout today. The panel also contains the Handouts tab, where you can download a PDF of the presentation. Most importantly, it's where you can find the question box to share your questions with our presenter today. If the Control Panel minimizes by default, simply click the orange arrow icon to bring it back. You can also go to the View menu on your Control Panel and uncheck the Auto-hide option. Our presenter is eager to address your questions at the end of the presentation, but feels free to enter your questions at any time. To encourage your engagement, IMUA will award a $25 Amazon gift card to the most engaged attendee as a token of our appreciation. Without further delay, please join me in welcoming today's presenter, Captain Randall Lund. Captain Lund is a Senior Marine Risk Consultant for Allianz Commercial. He's a graduate of SUNY Maritime, where he earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Meteorology and Oceanography, and then went on to earn an MBA from the University of Phoenix. As a Senior Marine Consultant, Captain Lund works with underwriters, claims brokers, and insurers to evaluate marine risk, mitigate losses, and make recommendations on all types of cargo and transit in all modes of transportation. In addition to many other recent accomplishments, Captain Lund has spearheaded and co-authored two Allianz Marine Risk Bulletins on lithium-ion batteries. And he has subsequently appeared as a subject matter expert in various marine industry magazines and webinars. He brings vast expertise, and we're honored to have him with us today. Captain Lund, the floor is all yours. Good day, everyone, and thank you, Lillian, for the introduction. I want to start out, first of all, just by thanking everyone who's taking time out of their busy days to join us today. You'll see one of my main overall themes with the presentation today will be with the issue of training and knowledge, and the knowledge sharing as it pertains to lithium-ion batteries. So looking at the number of participants that are here on, thank you very much, because we're on a fantastic start to reaching that goal, and I hope that you take some of these things that I'm going to be sharing with you today home with you and to share with your colleagues at work. One other thing I just wanted to mention with my introduction and to keep in mind is that I did sail for about seven, eight years on a variety of different ships, container ships, oil tankers, grain ships, and I do have 25 years' experience as a marine surveyor. And most of that, an awful lot of that, was dealing with hazardous cargos and compliance issues with the Coast Guard. I've now been, as Lillian said, eight years with the Allianz Commercial. And one of the things also keep in mind, I like to bring a little bit different flavor of where I am now, and since I've started with Allianz, actually about six, seven years ago, I joined our local fire department. So I am a New York State Interior volunteer firefighter, and I'm also part of our county hazmat response team. So with that, not only am I looking at lithium-ion batteries from my insurance job as a risk consultant, but also as a first responder. So bear with me, this is a very interactive type session, so I hope everybody's ready to press the button. We do have some polls throughout the training, and actually I'm going to start right away with a poll question, because typically I'm in front of some audiences and I ask people to raise their hand, and I can find out exactly a majority of the people of who I'm talking to, and a little bit about you guys. So let me just ask you the very first question, and let me get this poll launched. Bear with me, this is my first time that I've utilized GoToWebinar. So let me see, I'm going to launch that, hopefully, Lillian, you can at least pipe in and say you can see that. So I want to know who here, and it's a very simple yes or no, I'll give you 15 seconds, because believe it or not, we have an awful lot of questions, or an awful lot of information to get through. We can see it. Okay, excellent. And I'm seeing the responses come flowing in. I've got about 80% people have voted, and excellent. So we're looking at a mixed crowd, which is great, and I know that 70% roughly haven't had any training, so that gives me a very good idea to make sure that I stay at a very level platform that everybody can understand in that. So that's great. Let me close that poll and go on to the next slide. So the big question we have here for insurance, how do we approach the risk? I mean, nobody is going to be surprised, and everybody is on here because they know there are some problems and there are some things that need to be considered when you're looking at the lithium-ion battery problem. So what is the risk? Here I can only address this question on how do we approach it, and each and everyone here has their own idea of what your own business, whatever your employer is, whoever they are, and I know we have a wide range of different employees, employers here on board today. At Allianz, I can tell you that we first published our first risk bulletin back in February 2017, and then we did a second risk bulletin just last fall in 2023. So we've known about this risk, and obviously we're always concerned what actually can we do to control the risk. Well, in addition to the two risk bulletins that we at Allianz actually published for the general public, and they are available for anyone here on the call by going to our Allianz website, two years ago, as part of the Allianz's realization that emerging risks are always up and coming, we recognized lithium-ion batteries as one of the biggest risks, emerging risks that were coming. I was tasked, I guess you could say, with leading what we call our cross-line of business, so it wasn't just marine or inland marine, it included liability, property, energy, and construction, and so on and so forth, and MidCorp as a work group. And the risk consultants from each of those lines of business, we've been meeting on a monthly basis for the last two and a half years, developing different internal positions and conducting training for our underwriters, our colleagues, and our claims folks. So for the Allianz folks that are on the call today, I'm sure are already aware of all the resources available to them. In addition to my colleagues from our inland marine risk consulting team, so I myself am part of the ocean cargo team, but in our inland marine risk consulting team, you may very well know any of these three people, part of our U.S. inland marine team, our Joni Fagan, Ipsita Ranjin, and Justin Kersey, who's also on our EV battery charging work group. So that's what we've done. How do we approach the risk, and how are we going to control it? Well, I'm going to share some of the things that I have learned, and I'm not a battery expert, I can tell you that right now. I am not a chemist. I am a maritime guy. As I mentioned, I shipped, I'm a marine surveyor, I bring some HAZMAT knowledge, but what I've learned over the last two years through our work group and through our other lines of business, there's a lot of expertise out there. And I suggest you tap into your internal resources that you do have. I just want to go over just a couple of quick things as far as incidences, and there's no shortage of incidences that have been in the news, and the news media does a great job at what they do, and that's putting out the media stories that are dynamic. One of the most recent ones you may or may not have heard in South Korea, an underground car park damaged 100 vehicles. It really turned South Korea into a hotspot, I guess you could say, for discussions on what are we going to do about this. And I'm not going to go through the other ones here. There was out in Staten Island a lithium-ion battery scooter that involved multi-story and family residence, a huge South Korean manufacturing plant that burned up not too long ago, and I believe there were some people that were, there were fatalities to that. Even earlier this year, a New York City apartment complex. And again, I'm not going to go over them, I'm just going to hit real quick a couple of other things. But at the very bottom, you can see New York City, and I've been down to FDNY for two other symposiums on this, they experienced over 250 lithium-ion battery fires that they definitively said were a result of problems with the lithium-ion batteries in New York City in the year 2023, which resulted in 18 deaths. And unfortunately, that is something that the state of New York has been dealing with ever since. So from another point of view, just to show you that these incidences have increased, you can always search at some of the regulatory agencies. This one happens to be from the FAA, and you can see the rise and fall of the incidences that have been reported. So no surprising that when you go to check in for an air flight nowadays, they're asking you about your lithium-ion batteries. They want to know where they are, they want to make sure they're not down in the cargo hold where they can't get to them, and what precautions need to be. And I have a feeling the reason we're seeing a rise from 22, 23, and yet to see what happens in the rest of 24, is simply because of the volume, the number of people who are now carrying lithium-ion batteries, and who doesn't have one, right? This graph showing now from UL Solutions, a recognized entity, they also have a reporting system that you can report, or they're collecting information, and it really is. This last four or five, I'll even say 10 years, has been all about collecting the information so that we can, an industry can figure out what's the best way to move forward with it, because this isn't going to come to an end for some time. Obviously, worldwide initiatives are out there, and everyone's looking to get greener. So not only in the US, but headlines around the globe, and I mentioned about South Korea in the wake of their fire that they've had, there's a lot of discussions going on over there about charging EVs and underground parking garages, and then that raises all sorts of other concerns, where the parking garage is adequately protected, were they adequately constructed for these type of things, and it goes on and on, let's just say. Once you go down the rabbit hole, at least that's what I have found out over the last two or three years with our cross-line of business working group, there's a lot of contingencies, a lot of other areas of concern when you really start looking into this, down in Sydney, Australia, and in Germany. So this is not just a US problem, and I guess that's the reason I wanted to put up this next slide. You can see the hotspots. This was from, again, from UL, where they're recording on a worldwide basis where all the incidents of lithium-ion batteries are happening. What I didn't put up here, very specific to the marine world and the things I deal with, you may have heard of a few instances with row-row fires. Most of the row-row fires that we have seen, unfortunately, there is no definitive reason what caused them, and that's mainly because the fires were so extensive and burned so hot for so long that there wasn't any evidence left, or in a few of the cases, the vessels have sunk, or it's going to take a year or two to come up with a final plan. It's been interesting, though, that the number of fires on board, not only row-row ships, but container ships, continues to climb and is one of the biggest battles that we see. For those of you here in the US, you may have heard of the, just last year, last July, the Grimaldi-Grand Costa d'Evoria in the port of Newark, New Jersey, and the only reason I bring that up is, again, because I am a firefighter myself, and unfortunately, two shore-side New Jersey firemen were killed trying to fight that fire on board there. I want to bring this home and make sure everybody understands that this is not just work involved. This very well could be a part of what you're seeing and what you may be experiencing in your everyday life. With that, let's move on to the actual training, now that we know it's definitely a problem worldwide. Some of the things we're going to be looking at today, and I have an awful lot of information, so we're just going to be going through this as quick as possible. You heard Lillian say that it would be available as a handout, so you have this PowerPoint presentation as a PDF to be able to download that and have that. We're going to look at what exactly it is we're talking about, the chemistries, and I appreciate everybody who, earlier, and by that I mean within the last month or so when word went out we were having this, that submitted some questions. I was able to cater my presentation to answer most of those questions, and one of them was dealing with the battery chemistry, so I've addressed that here. We're going to look at the risks and the hazards, look at some of the regulations. There's quite a few questions on the regulatory aspect, and what are some of the best practices we can do. What's the current fire protection that's out there, and the suppression, and then we'll wrap it up, and hopefully we'll have some time for some additional questions from you all sitting through this. So the acronyms. Again, I'm just going to put these up as quick as I can be up, and hopefully most of these you have recognized or have seen in the past, energy storage systems, your battery energy storage systems. These are the 20 or 40-foot containers. Look just like intermodal freight containers, but are they? This one here, lithium ion or lithium ion batteries. Your battery management system, your BMS, you'll hear people talking in the industry about the BMS. Oh, that BMS failed. Well, it's the battery management system, dealing with the individual battery cells and the module, reading the parameters, letting you know, controlling the system. So with your iPhone or any other phone that you have, if you ever wondered why it automatically shut off because you left it out in the sun, well, it overheated. The battery management system took it over and turned it off for you, thankfully. But that leads to other problems that we're going to get to when we discuss some of the causes. The energy management system is, let's just call it a robust battery management system, but it's looking at the entire 20 or 40-foot container battery energy storage system, and it's monitoring the entire system. So it's the energy management system, the EMS. State of charge, you have likely have heard of that before, and that's going to be typically in a percentage from zero to 100%. How much charge, how much energy is actually currently stored within that battery? What is the state of charge? A state of health is one you may or may not have heard of. It's becoming more popular because it is really important as the industry is working to develop new technologies to verify what is the current condition, not just the state of charge, what's the condition or the health status of any battery or battery system, especially when you start talking about used batteries, used lithium-ion batteries. Where's the assurance that that battery is as good as it was when it was originally manufactured? So what is the state of health of the battery? And then, of course, just to make sure we're very clear, the difference between a primary and secondary battery, primary is a single-use, the button-type, non-rechargeable. They are lithium-ion, but they're a once-and-done type battery. Secondary batteries are the rechargeable ones, and that's basically what we're going to be talking about the rest of today. Stranded energy, I would put that up just because as a first responder, a lot of times we don't know what the state of charge is. What we're concerned with is how much energy is left in there, the stranded energy remaining in the battery, because that is going to determine how long of an event that we are going to have. And by event, I mean how long is the chemical reaction going to carry on before this fire or thermal runaway actually stops, if in fact that is what is happening. So what we're talking about, I can just leave that photo up there. I'm going to go from small mobility devices, and very likely an awful lot of you here on the call have something like this or are involved in cargo being stored or shipped. One that's not up here, but I actually have right here in my house, my Roomba vacuum cleaner. What we're not going to be talking about, though, are your wearable electronic watches, medical devices. I'm only going to be speaking as we walk through this with the secondary or rechargeable lithium-ion batteries. Next step up from your microportable devices are your EVs, whether that's a car, buses are coming on board all over the world, fleets are being changed to electrical buses, and of course you've got your material handling devices inside your warehouses, your forklifts, and that are all devices that we're going to be discussing. And then once we go to the bigger size scale, your battery energy storage systems, they look very similar at first look to a standard ISO intermodal freight container carrying cargo, which are typically carried on board container vessels, but are they really? No, they're filled with batteries, they're not filled with cargo, they're not going to be reused in transporting cargo all over the world. So the question then becomes, who's the actual manufacturer? They are now literally considered a shipper-owned container, even though they have the intermodal lifting capacities, the corner castings on these battery energy storage systems. Are they able to be stacked on board a container ship? How high to what standards have they been built or constructed to? What kind of steel was used? Have they been class approved for stacking on board vessels or do they need to be loaded as standalone cargo? So it's an interesting predicament. I know inland marine is what we're talking about today, but just to give you an idea, because you may see these obviously in different capacities, because they are also being used as a backup storage for say hospitals and other warehouse facilities as a battery backup system. What most likely you're typically seeing the most of would be your package batteries, whether that's cartons, pallet loads, container loads, or boxes. The picture in the middle actually is a 40 foot freight container that had a problem with it on the way to a port, which caused eventually the U.S. Coast Guard to issue a safety alert. What was interesting about this and they discovered the truck driver bringing it down to the East Coast to a port noticed his load, his container was on fire. He pulled over and yes, the entire load was a total loss. They were documented as used computer parts. They were actually used lithium ion batteries. And when one went off, whatever remaining state of charge, whatever the stranded energy was, ended up causing a total loss to the cargo. So I'm gonna jump back into another poll question. Again, I just would like to know how personal this presentation may be to you. So question is, do you have any lithium ion batteries in your house or garage? And you should see the poll up there. I see the responses coming in. So thank you, everyone who's participating so quickly. I appreciate it. And Randy, as a reminder, when you're ready to close the poll, you can click share results after you close it. Oh, my apologies. Thank you. So we've got over 80, almost 85% have voted. So I will go ahead and close that poll. And thank you, Eileen. Let me see, I'm gonna share. Share the results. There we go. Okay, so that's very interesting. Hopefully you can see that. 93% of you have some sort of lithium ion battery device in your house. Okay, the very next poll. Perfect, thank you. The very next poll. So I have three questions here in a row for you. I'm curious to know how many of you actually own a hybrid or an EV? Either one. And by hybrid, I do mean the electrical plug-in hybrids. I originally had one of the first Priuses, which was a hybrid, it was not a plug-in. So I'm just curious how many of you do have them. And again, we're getting close to 85%. So thank you for being so quick on the buttons. Let me see, I should have advanced the slide. There we go. We've got 80, 90% of the people have voted. I'm gonna close that and share again. And so about 10% of you actually have one. And then the very last one, currently have one, 11%, 89% do not. So the very last question, how many of you anticipate possibly having one? Hmm. Boy, the results are coming in and very, very interesting. So we go from 10% or 11% that currently have them and back up to about 85% of the folks have voted already. So thank you for being so quick. I'll close that poll and I'll share that. And we have 43% saying that they are considering owning an EV sometime in the future. So the reason I bring this up is I wanna make sure everybody understands the training we're doing today is not just for your business. It's for you understanding some of the risks involved with not only EVs, but with any kind of lithium ion battery device that you have around your home. As a first responder, this knowledge, you hear knowledge is power. To me, knowledge is information that needs to be shared when it comes to life-saving measures. When life safety is involved, we need to make sure we get the word out to the general public as well as to businesses. And I'm not saying lithium ion batteries are, they've been around for 20, 25 years. It's amazing, simply what a great job the news media is doing on increasing the awareness through whatever dramatic pictures they can get of lithium ion batteries going wrong. And an awful lot of that has to deal with just simply the volume and the number that are currently out there. So with that, I'm gonna hide that. And we are going to proceed with the next slide. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about the chemistries. So some of the questions that I did receive dealt with the chemistry itself. So what I wanted to just talk about here is the actual process of the chemistry of what's actually going on with these lithium ion batteries. So in red at the bottom of the slide, I wanna make sure everybody's fully aware that lithium ion batteries do not contain any lithium metal. Those of you out there that may be aware, lithium metal is highly reactive to water. So people that were saying we don't wanna use water on a lithium ion battery fire, that would be incorrect. We'll see later on, it's one of the best things, one of the only things that we currently have that's working as water normally does. So there's no lithium metal in a lithium ion battery, it's just ions. And these ions move back and forth between the cathode and the anode. In between there, the ions travel through a flammable electrolyte. So this battery has a fluid in it, the electrolyte is flammable, but while it passes from the cathode to the anode, it passes through this semi-permeable membrane is what we can think of. If you could picture in your mind, a subway station with hundreds of folks waiting to get on the train and the doors open, there's all the lithium ion trying to get from one side of the platform and find a seat. That's a good analogy of what's happening, the lithium ions. Once you plug it in and start to charge it, everything is looking for a place to go. Once you're using the battery and energy is being spent, all the lithium ions are trying to move very quickly from one side to the other. And attempting to do so, that's where the energy is being created, that is where the heat is being generated, and that is where one of the problems that we're seeing now, thanks to the research and the information that we're learning about them, this terminology you may have heard is where plating comes into focus and thus the lifespan of the battery itself. Plating is that ongoing process of charging, discharging, charging, discharging, and the anode and cathode no longer able to hold those or there's not as many seats available for the people to sit down, similar to a musical chairs. All of a sudden, no one has a place to go, they build up and this plating starts to occur. The other thing I wanna mention with this, with the different chemistries, the different battery manufacturers you'll see, I've just listed four of the most common ones here. And I get a lot of questions, why is lithium iron phosphate, the third one listed in there, the LFP safer, or at least it's considered safer? There's a trade-off between the chemistries and the factors that go into the trade-off are the energy density, the capacity of the battery itself, how long is it gonna take to charge it? What's the cost of producing that battery? And are the raw materials in abundance enough to mass produce these things? Think of it as the manufacturers have a different recipe. The percentage of metals, and you'll see there's a couple of different metals listed here, you got the magnanese oxide, you've got cobalt, you've got your iron phosphate, depending on the percentage of the metals that go into the anode and cathode will change the parameters of what that battery's capacity is, how quickly it can be charged or discharged. So there's gonna be a trade-off. The reason why, to answer the question that somebody asked early, why lithium iron phosphate is considered safer is simply because it doesn't give off oxygen. And as we see in this one, the thermal stability for a lithium iron phosphate battery is much higher. And when you start talking about, and you get in discussions with, well, do we need to actually store these in a refrigerated environment, i.e. whether it's a refrigerated container turned on or just an insulated container to prevent it from overheating? Does the warehouse need to be cooled? It really, there is no specific answer, general answer, because it really is specific to the chemistry of that battery and the conditions that are typically gonna be found while they're in transit. So your lithium iron phosphate has a slightly lower energy density, so that's the negative side, but it has a much higher thermal stability. If you look at the temperature differences between the bottom two, the only two I put up there, 250 degrees Celsius or greater, the battery becomes slightly unstable, close to 500 degrees Fahrenheit. So that's a much higher temperature before it's going to become at risk of breaking down thermally and possibly starting a fire and all of your thermal runaway, where your other lithium cobalt oxide, it's a much lower, over 100 degrees, 150 degrees lower stability point. So just keep that in mind. And that's really the reason why people are always asking, or at least I will be asking and have been asking our underwriters, what is the chemistry of the battery? It's a very important question to be asking because it does go to the risks involved in transit and while it's in storage. And of course, across the United States, storage facilities range in, atmospheric temperature is very different, the ambient temperatures at some of these locations. So would it be required to be cooled and fans running, temperatures being monitored? It really depends. Phoenix, Arizona versus Buffalo, New York, the big difference in what the ambient temperature is typically gonna be experienced by those batteries. The only other thing I wanted to mention here, in addition to those factors that we just talked about, just making sure everybody understands, there are basically three different cell types and we're talking about the individual batteries. You have your cylindrical and your prismatic and your pouch batteries. Okay, but with that said, I do wanna make one other additional point. Lithium iron phosphate, even though they have a much higher thermal stability point to be reached before they become problematic, if and when they do reach that, the fire behavior is very similar to any other thermal runaway battery. The chemical process is still going on. Once that's reached that point, then the fire is going to be significant until the chemical reaction stops. And I haven't actually talked about that, but that is literally the only way the lithium ion battery fires are gonna stop, is when that chemical reaction actually finishes. When there's no more energy left in there, it's totally spent, it's down to 0% stated charge, there's nothing left. So the batteries no longer become a hazardous device or the chemical reaction has ceased. What was I going to say to that? No, I think that was it. So let's have a look at some of the hazards. As I mentioned, the electrolyte in the battery is flammable. That's one of the major risks, one of the major problems. You may have heard of solid state batteries coming online. I can tell you that the different chemistries and the different technologies as far as energy storage goes and the different types of batteries, weekly I'm seeing articles on new developments. Currently, the lithium ion battery, the electrolyte currently out there most commonly used is a ignitable liquid. And with that, they're subject to exploding simply because if the chemical reaction, the thermal runaway or the reaction that's actually happening happens in a confined space where the vents are not being provided, whether in the battery module and it's in a confined space and it's building up, the chemical reaction is going to go until an explosion happens. And there are some videos if you haven't seen them online. A couple of fire departments experienced it when they opened up a garage door and there was an EV car fire and it literally blew the garage door off as the firefighters were making their approach. Absolutely dramatic and horrible to see. And it's happened with battery energy storage systems also where firefighters were killed. Toxicity, one of the other main hazards. These gases being released during the fire and or explosion will be producing irritating, corrosive and or toxic gases. If you ever were involved or ever see a lithium ion battery start to show the signs that it's going to be a problem and that could be by popping noises, smoking, giving off a funny noise or sound, just know that it's not just a gas being given off, not just smoke given off, it is poisonous gases. And we as a first responder and firefighter, we're always in our PPE and getting our air packs on anytime we see any kind of lithium ion battery fires. And I know down in New York, they're doing the same. It's just not worthwhile, so there are toxic gases. The thermal runaway, the rapid self-heating that can cause either a fire or an explosion. Now the thermal runaways, for those that aren't familiar, is an exothermic chemical reaction and it builds up upon itself. So in other words, once the reaction starts and the heat is being produced, the heat increases the production of the fire. Oxygen is being given off with the lithium ion batteries and that oxygen is feeding it, it's getting hotter, it's happening quicker until the point where you're going to see a flame come shooting out. And here's a perfect example of a pouch battery that is in thermal runaway as it's finally found its escape and it's coming out the side. I'm sure many of you have seen what happens on the battery modules on the bottom of a car and the torch-like flames that come out. Okay, so what's causing these things? Let's have a look at it. What are the problems with it? You see there's one picture up there is all of the pouch batteries and then there's that container again that was used computer parts. But what's causing these things? Substandard manufacturing is a big one. So my advice to everybody here listening, find out who the manufacturer of the battery, who the manufacturer is, who actually produced the battery cells. There are substandard batteries out there. There are counterfeit or knockoff batteries. You can go on and replace your battery module to your electric vehicle on eBay. You can find out how to make your own lithium ion battery online. So just imagine when they get out into the supply stream, supply chain, these batteries, yeah, they're substandard and they may not be meeting any of the requirements for the manufacturer. And if you don't think it's a huge problem with altered batteries and then there's the D, do-it-yourself people that are adjusting the batteries, you can just ask FDNY. They've had plenty of experience, excuse me, with a lot of different problematic areas down there with do-it-yourself. Overcharging, and by overcharging, this is typically going to happen when your battery management system, the BMS, no longer is operating correctly for whatever the reason is, whether that device itself was substandard in the manufacturing process, but overcharging a battery can overheat it and the chemical reaction can start off. It's typically due to the battery management system failing though, or somebody has altered or gotten into it and tried to adjust the battery management system so they could get a bigger charge, they can get a bigger capacity. Short-circuiting, why it's so important to make sure that the cargo you have coming into your warehouse or that your clients are shipping is actually complying with the packaging regulations. So please remember, lithium-ion batteries are a hazardous material when shipped. And that's true domestically in the United States as well as internationally. Short-circuiting is simply somehow there's a connection happening between the anode and cathode devices, the tabs sticking out of them, or something is causing them to short-circuit. That's typically a problem if they're not packaged correctly. There are UN-approved packagings that need to be met for all packages in the supply chain and being transported. And damaged batteries. One of the most common causes is when batteries get damaged and whether that's installed in a vehicle and you happen to have an MVA, motor vehicle accident, or they bottomed out the bottom of the car somehow and the battery modules at the bottom have gotten damaged, for example, with EVs, or whether they're just handling damages. And I don't think anyone on here would probably argue with me when I say that handling damages is one of the most common cargo insurance claims that we have. Any kind of damage to cargo will cause a claim possibly. For lithium-ion batteries, you have to be specifically or particularly careful not to transport any damaged packages or appear to be damaged that are carrying lithium-ion batteries. Because the reaction inside and that semi-permeable membrane that we talked about, we don't know if that package or that pallet was set down too hard and that semi-permeable membrane has been breached, somehow cracked, and now you have free flow of energy. The ions are flowing between them, unbeknownst to you. So it's undisclosed damage, you can't see it. It may not even erupt for hours later, days later, and sometimes a week or two later before the energy exothermic reaction creates such a case that you're actually seeing smoke come out and then a fire and so on and so forth. So don't ever transport, is one of my main recommendations you'll see in a little bit, damaged packages that contain lithium-ion batteries. Okay, with that, I now have just a brief, if you haven't seen a thermal runaway, just a quick video here I'm going to show, and I'm gonna narrate over the top of it. This is actually one of the most things that I'd like you to take notice of is the year that this was filmed. So this was eight years ago. We knew back then there was going to be problems with lithium-ion batteries. This happens to be a research facility, and these four gentlemen were charging a lithium-ion battery, and then they broke for lunch. Let's see what happens. They were charging the battery for some event later in the evening, and then they decided, okay, we're gonna leave it. We're gonna leave the telemetry on. We're going out to lunch. They went out to lunch, and... So it was being charged. That was an explosion, and that was a very quick thermal runaway that caused the majority of it to come out. This gentleman that came in from next door, he was in another laboratory with a CO2. You can see how effective that is. CO2 is not going to do anything to it because the chemical reaction that's happening between within the battery is not stopping. The chemical reaction is gonna continue. So thankfully, this gentleman also called 911. So it initially puts it out, but you can see here in a second, you see the gases, the smoke that's still giving off, and you'll see that in a minute with the firefighters come in. So there it is. There's the smoke is still indicating the chemical reaction is still ongoing. The battery may have put it out for now, but the heat is building. The energy is still being dispelled, and guess what's going to happen? And that smoke, remember, is toxic, carbon monoxide, hydrogen fluoride, and boom, the fire lights up again. So thankfully, the fire department had been called. The fire department did arrive with proper PPE, and watch what they try to do again. They said, oh, we're gonna hit this with the CO2. Didn't really work too well. So what they ultimately did was open the door, open some sort of access, and they pulled it out and saved the rest of the facility. So again, how do we go about stopping a lithium-ion battery fire? So I wanted to put that on there just until I get to the next slide, in which case I do have another polling question. So let me just check and see who is still awake out there. And now I'm actually gonna ask you a question. What are the main causes of the fire? Something we just went over. So let me just see what people think, see who's still awake. And very quickly, people are popping in their answers, so I appreciate that, because we're about halfway through, and we need to keep this moving as fast as I possibly can. So I might not wait for everybody. I do see that over 85% have already voted, so I'm gonna close that poll. And actually, there's not a wrong answer because of the fact that all of those are correct. So those that answered any of the above are exactly right. So thank you very much for participating in that poll. Now I wanna move on to the next section, which deals with the regulatory aspects. There was quite a few questions that I was provided with. I wanted to know, where do we find the regulations? And I've listed them here. I'm not gonna go over them. We just really don't have an awful lot of time to go through specific regulatory aspects. There's a couple points I wanna make, though, here. And depending whether it's a domestic shipment within the United States or an international shipment, 49CFR, the U.S. DOT, what we call PHMSA, Pipeline Hazardous Material Safety Administration, they're the governing body for wall-in transit of any hazardous material. So 49CFR would be the Bible within the United States to meet compliance for any kind of battery, any kind of hazmat, including the lithium-ion batteries. And then OSHA, of course, has their own regulatory aspect, which may apply more or be more applicable to warehouses. And then just, I've listed a couple of the other international standards that are out there for those in the marine environment, the IMDG code and the IMO requirements for vessels, where they can stow them. And then the IATA and the IKO for the air regulations and the air freight. What do I need to say about that? Just know the difference between regulations and standards. So from a regulatory aspect, a regulation is a legally binding requirement. It's mandatory. You have to comply. A shipment found not in compliance would be in violation and obviously then could possibly jeopardize any kind of coverage if they're not complying with the international regulations. Standards are not legally binding. However, industry standards do carry significant weight in court proceedings and claims. So there are standards out there that may not hold as much weight as a regulation, but standards are typically what precede the regulations. In other words, industry comes up with standards and then eventually the regulatory agencies will look at them, evaluate them, and that's a long process. And that's one of the comments I've made at the bottom. The regulations and standards, they are continuing to evolve as technology is moving forward so quickly. Regulations are going to be lagging behind. They are very slow to implement. You can imagine on an international scale how much time it takes for country to country to all agree that yes, these are the regulations that we will agree to. And then once they're actually out there, how difficult could it possibly be to enforce international regulations? How difficult is it to enforce domestic regulations? Especially if an incident has occurred and then it takes into account the investigation and so on and so forth. So some of the other standards that are out there that are available, they move through a little bit quicker, such as FM Global has their data sheets that are out there. NFPA is working diligently. I've been involved in one of their research foundations to try to understand some of the parameters while in transit onboard railroad ships. And then, of course, the UL standards that everyone is so familiar with. Internationally, I have the picture over there of there's a lot of different standards that are out there. But with that, I'm just going to say be very careful because there are counterfeit markings that are out there. UL did a great presentation on how to identify a forged UL marking on some of these equipment, whether they're battery chargers, EV charging stations, the batteries themselves. So that's always a very interesting predicament that you have to get involved with and hopefully you don't. Okay, let me take a breath here for a second, make sure I didn't miss anything on the regulatory aspects. Go to the next slide and just show you one of the most valuable pieces of knowledge, I guess you could say, that you can share and download is and has been put out by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The Pipeline and Hazardous Material Safety Administration that I mentioned earlier. Here's the link to a lithium battery guide for shippers. So in all likelihood, very applicable to most of you out there. You're dealing with shippers that are bringing things into warehouses or moving them through warehouses. And just know that warehousing of lithium-ion batteries may very well still be a part of transportation. If it's incidental to the transport, the Hazmat regulations consider them still in transit, even though you may be storing them. Now, if there's no longer a bill of lading and they're in a final place of rest, as we say, and somebody owns them and they're being stored for an extended period of time and they're not actually in transportation anymore, so it's no longer incidental to the transportation, then obviously they're not considered Hazmat in transportation and 49 CFR would not need to be complied with. But considering that they probably arrived somehow, then they would have had to have been in compliance simply during the transit side of getting there. Within the guide for the shippers, there's a UN manual of testing criteria, commonly referred to as UN Standard 38.3, and it sets out the design criteria for battery manufacturers. This is one of the documents. A little bit later, I'm gonna show you what I typically will ask for, and they are required, if it's requested, to provide a copy of the summary test that prove that UN 38.3 actually has been met. With that, always keep in mind, there are counterfeit manufacturers, knockoffs out there, who won't have this document available because they haven't met the standards. So it goes back to, we're all very much aware how much the insurance industry is a relationship industry, is to get to know your brokers, get to know your clients, and find out who are they dealing with, where are they getting their lithium-ion batteries from, and request the test summary reports. So let's look at some of the best practices. Let me see how much time we've got left. Only 10 minutes, so I need to move through this pretty quick. Again, you have this as a PDF, so please take advantage of that and download it, have it. Some of the best practices that we've been recommending. I'll just put them up there. Make sure you're dealing with reputable manufacturers. Request the test summary reports. If you can find out what the state of charge is, we're recommending that while in transit, there really is no reason that we know of to be greater than 30%. Again, it goes back to the amount of energy, the amount of risk, if something were to go wrong with that, that that battery is containing and holding onto. You know, when something goes wrong, 100% charged battery, 80% charged battery is a lot more than 30% as far as the amount of energy in the severity of the fire or the duration of the fire that will occur. So battery chemistry and the battery type for compliance with the DOT regs is very important. Make sure the packaging is being used correctly, that the right packaging is being done and you're following the packaging instructions in order to prevent short circuits. Increase your container and warehouse inspections. So a very basic thing. And definitely have protocols in place of what to do if a battery is damaged or a package is damaged. Make sure your client knows and has established protocols for all their workers to understand they really shouldn't be moving these, continuing on in transportation. Those defective or recalled batteries, if you're doing recycling and things like that, there's additional packaging requirements that will be required. Yeah, the classification is important. The IMDG, International Vessel Regulations, as well as 49 CFR, the domestic, we're gonna see tremendous changes and a lot of additional entries are going to be added over the next couple of years to the lithium-ion battery choices based on the chemistry because the different chemistries have different risks. So keep that in mind, things will be changing. For cargo warehouses, I've discussed some of these already. We still have a problem in the industry worldwide with undeclared and misdeclared, so make sure your documents match. Utilize advanced monitoring systems. There's some amazing technology that is coming out, not only just your normal smoke and heat detectors, but actual specific gases. We know when a battery is about to go into thermal runaway, specific types of gases are given off and there are now sensors out there that will detect the gassing off before a major problem happens. It's not an awful lot of warning behind it, but any time is better than no warning time at all. That's for sure. Develop a pre-plan. I can't stress that enough. As a firefighter, how many large businesses may not even consider your local fire department and engage them in yearly training? Stay up to date with the different chemistries that are out there. New mitigation products are entering the marketplace all the time. If you're dealing with or know a client that is dealing with damaged waste or end-of-life lithium-ion batteries, I will say that requires special training, special knowledge, and I'm not gonna get into it. We have a different working group that is looking at that because we've been into the lithium-ion batteries and now wonder, end-of-life, what are we doing with these? How do we recycle them? What do we do? What are the risks while those types of batteries are in transit? What do we got? Training. I mentioned at the very beginning, training is a vital important part of any account that you have. Make sure the local people, the hands-on that are handling the packages that are in the warehouse have had training and understand the risks that they're involved with. And again, the suppression system, we'll go back to warehouses and the suppression systems, consult with the local fire protection experts. We had questions about the best type of sprinkler system. I can tell you that is another area that is advancing so quickly and what is the best sprinkler system to cover your warehouse situation. FM Global is making tremendous strides forward in helping out with that. And UL will do that and the other standards will follow. For carriers, carriers by that I mean the vessels, barges and ferries, if you get involved in that and or your truckers, make sure you're double checking the booking, the paperwork, verify your shipping documents, making sure that you've requested the UN 38.3, the test summary report. Ensure that proper stowage and segregation. Again, this is more for the vessels. If you're involved in vessels or even barge traffic up and down some of our brown water areas, adequate watch keeping in the warehouses as well as the vessels, increase your fire rounds. State of charge, what's the reason? If they're saying that they need to be shipping and transporting or storing these at 80%, that is a much higher risk from an insurance point of view. What's the reason behind it? How long? What protocols are in place? What other reasoning do they need to look at? Have all the drivers been trained? Do the drivers understand that when they put these things in transit out on the public highway, what's gonna happen if something were to go wrong? And increase the detection in firefighting capabilities. Again, engage your local department. This label that we see off to the right, caution label, just make sure you read this and see what it says. You're actually required not to load a transport package if it's damaged, if it contains lithium ion batteries. So that is a huge telltale sign and should be on every carton, pallet, container load that's moving them. You've probably seen them if you've had Amazon deliver it to your house. You've probably seen something very similar to that on there. Okay, let's talk now just briefly or very quickly about the fire protection itself, all the new solutions. Copious amounts of water. I can't express that long enough or hard enough. And the reason we want to have that is water is one of the best mediums to absorb the heat. We talked about the heat and thermal runaway, once a certain temperature is reached, that thermal runaway, the chemical reaction, the exothermic reaction is going to continue until it either expends all the energy or you remove enough heat energy from that chemical reaction that's going to cause it to stop. And we have seen in the fire service where a battery, an EV, they put it out, they've cooled it down, but there's still the energy left in there. So they've cooled it down well enough, they put out the fire, but two hours later, as they're towing it to the junkyard, it lights up again because there was still a state of charge left, there was still stranded energy left in that battery, the chemical reaction hadn't stopped, it had just paused until enough heat was built up to give evidence of smoke and a fire again. So copious amounts of water, how are we going to do that? Larger storage facilities, you can think about having independent duplicate water supply sources. Do you have your own water tank that firefighters can tap into or your own fire brigade can tap into? Do you have 24-7 monitoring services and devices? There are a lot of them out there that is literally double than the different types of services that are out there. And by that, I mean local and remote. So you can have somebody right there at the facility monitoring or it can be a remote station. Technology and Bluetooth and connectivity is all being utilized. Who's getting the notices? Who's watching the CCTV? You have smoke detectors, gas detection, temperature alarm, visual and audio alarms, instant notifications, who's getting alerted on their iPhones, on their smartphones? Who's being notified? And is the local fire department being notified? Are they on the list to get a notice from a maid? And what I'm going through this is I'm talking about major storage facilities that are storing mass amounts of lithium-ion batteries. There are developments with in-rack storage and sprinkler systems and deluge systems. And there are new technologies, new chemistries out there, including auto detection and fire suppression. I've listed a couple right here that I've been impressed with, the Fire Rover. If you have never seen that or heard of that, you can go to their website and see what their protection system is all about. Hazard Control Technology, HCT. The F-500 Encapsulating Agency. I'm going to talk about that a little bit more, simply because I've actually had a firsthand experience with it. We trained with it at our local fire department. And it was amazing the difference that that makes in putting out a lithium-ion battery fire. So fire suppression, water, water, water, just like location for the realtors out there. Location, location, I'm saying water, water, water. You're going to need a lot of water to put out the fire, or to at least contain it and maintain it from propagating to the next piece of cargo. Fire blankets, you're going to hear, if you haven't already, seen an awful lot of fire blankets out there. These do a great job of containing. They're not going to necessarily put out the fire, but they will contain it from hopefully spreading. The question is, are people trained on how to adequately apply it to put it on there? And obviously it's a hazardous situation for any employee to do. Fire departments are considering them, are utilizing them on EV fires, but they could be used on any kind of lithium-ion battery fire. And really the main thing with fire blankets is containment. There is a container piercing device. There's numerous ones out there. This picture here I'm showing of what they call the hydro pen by Viking Safety Systems. It is for containers on board container ships that is being used on some ships. It actually drills into the back of the container and actually just floods the container as long as they can get to it and have access to it. There's numerous other devices out there including EV dipping containers. New packaging materials are coming online all the time testifying or saying that they have the best packaging that's going to contain your EV fires. The new fire suppression, I mentioned the F-500 by Hazard Control Technology. It's an encapsulating agent. It is not a foam. It's a different newer technology. It's actually been out for probably three to five years and it's just really now becoming a mainstay. The FAA has approved it for crash units at airports across the United States and other entities worldwide are starting to utilize the F-500. It's used at a two to three percent mixture with water so it increases the cooling effect of the water and contains some of the gases, the majority of the gases that are being given off. We tested with it at our fire department and found it absolutely amazing how quickly it cooled the lithium-ion battery fire down to the point that I actually reached out and just put some of the lithium-ion batteries in my hand literally seconds after we applied it. So keep that in mind. There are a lot of different technologies out there. This is one of them. We're not necessarily recommending it but we're just saying that there are a lot of technologies and different devices that are coming on the market. If you haven't seen it before, do your own research and look into it for protection. Sorry, go ahead. Somebody wanted to say something? I'm almost done and let me just see how much time we've got. We're actually already over time so I apologize to everybody. As I quickly get through the rest of these, we're almost done and I'm not going to launch that next poll question because I want to get to some answers. But the poll question, last one, was going to be what is the best fire suppressant and it is obviously water but even more so water with the F500 encapsulating agent. So in summary, training, training, training. Communication is vital. Ensure all domestic and international hazmat regulations are being complied with. Vitally important. It has to be in compliance with the hazmat regs while it's in transportation. Establish protocols and standard operating procedures at the local warehouses for receiving and storing them. They should be different than regular cargo because there's different risks involved with these lithium-ion batteries. Ensure all the shipping papers are correctly documenting the cargo that's being received. Train your drivers and warehouse workforce as well as your emergency responders. I can't emphasize that enough. Pass on to your clients to get in touch with your local fire departments. I guarantee you they will be so appreciative of understanding what it is you're storing in your warehouses and coming up with a pre-action plan, a pre-event and then actually training to that plan so everybody knows what's going on. When these fires happen, they happen very quickly and they're very, very fierce. Increase your warehouse inspections. Know your clients and ask questions. Engage your fire department and then, as I just mentioned, exercise the plan at least annually if you can and even to the point of considering would your warehouse actually benefit from your own fire department on-site, your own fire brigade within that facility, whatever that warehouse facility is. So, in conclusion, it is an increased risk but it can be mitigated. Collaboration, obviously, all stakeholders and by that I mean the manufacturers of the batteries, your shipping line, transporters, warehouse, regulatory agencies, inspectors and first responders. You know, train and educate your folks and that's what this course and your time today hopefully has been worthwhile and all I can ask is that you please share what you've learned today. If you're still looking for some additional resources, Allianz has a variety of resources. The bottom six listed there are all available at our Allianz.com website and the Lithium Battery Guide put out by DOT by PHMSA is also there. You can just search for that online and it's downloadable and available. We also have a training session similar to this one. If you're not sick of me talking yet, you can actually do another online on-demand training that we have available at our website for the general public that anyone can take and it's a very general. A lot of the same information is shared again but it's a little bit different perspective more towards the ocean cargo side of marine shipping batteries and with that I thank you all for your time. I apologize for running over and we will I will be staying on for a little bit of time for any other additional questions and let me just thank you all for that and finish with a quote that I picked up from FDNY that I think is vitally important. With that I turn that back over to Leslie. Yes, thank you so much Captain Lund. So we're ready to take questions now and you know if you need to hop off please note that we will record this and we'll include the Q&A session in the recording. Due to the important nature of this topic however we will continue to ask you know take some questions right now and the first one we have is from George. How does he best protect an auto repair shop that works on EV? Would a fire blanket canopy over the workstation that can be dropped on top of the burning vehicle or battery be feasible? You know that's a great question and I love that answer. You know I have never ceased to be amazed at how much knowledge and practical solutions are available when people get together and talk and you just explained that question to me. I'm picturing a tent type battery a tent type tarp similar to the blankets that I showed pre-staged ready to drop down on a workstation. What a great idea from my perspective. Yeah I mean obviously these are weighted blankets if you're not familiar with them these are very very heavy blankets and just dropping it down would be a start but obviously you still need to get in and tuck it in all the way around and it should hopefully give you enough time for the fire department to get there. With that I would also recommend one of the things that we're doing and a lot of departments across the country are doing are coming up with a plan on how to pull that car that vehicle out of that facility as quick as you can. You know cooling it off well enough putting out the the EV fire the combustible the seats and all the other parts that light up with a car in addition the batteries so that somebody can get underneath and hook it and pull it out of the garage. Get it out of the structures get it out of the other exposures that are at risk at that same time and that's exactly what that answer would do. It would give some additional time and prevent the propagation of that fire in that battery in that car to the rest of the facility. It's a great idea. And along those lines we have from Paul he said he's seen firefighters stand around an EV while it burns and that they say that the vehicle needs to burn out on its own. So in reality the EV fire could be extinguished faster. Well this is the question could it you know be extinguished faster if it's continuously doused with water or is it because the water supply would not be constant enough? So as I mentioned in the in the training the chemical reaction is going to continue. There's nothing that's stopping that we know of that I'm aware of that is going to stop the chemical reaction until the energy has been expended. You get down to a zero state of charge. The water is cooling it down below the flammability aspect and maybe slowing it down and stopping it temporarily. But the reason and that is there's there's two main thoughts in the fire service surround and drown. Try to drown it as best you can with all the water and the again copious amounts of water that's going to be required to do that or are we going to be better off letting it burn out until that chemical reaction stops then they can put the fire out of the remit if there's anything left of the vehicle that's still left to be burning they can put it out. So it's a it's really depends on the individual local fire department what they choose to do. I know on some of the larger battery energy storage systems yeah there's just in depending where they are in remote areas there's just not the water supply. You're just not going to have what's needed to actually bring it down in your control. Thus becomes a very important when the actual construction the distances between other exposures or the distances that the batteries are stored inside a warehouse facility becomes vitally important to make sure that there's enough distance between other exposures. So it's all about mitigating in preventing the propagation of the fire to from one unit to another unit. I hope that answered the question but that's why they're standing around they must have taken the stance that they're going to let it burn out. Thank you and this question is from Maria Fernanda. Does the protocol change for disposing of old lithium batteries that are being discarded and is there a specific treatment for storing this waste? Yes to answer the question the answer would be yes. In both cases use discarded recycled lithium-ion batteries. It's a whole different beast that needs to be very closely monitored. I'd be very cautious as far as ensuring these places. I can absolutely if this person was a Heather you said no whoever asked that question was able to email me I could there are some facilities out there that specialize in recycling centers as far as fire protection goes and there's some unique monitoring systems that are out there but even from the packaging point of view because is it going back for recycling or is it actually determined to be waste and when you start dealing with the waste then you're getting involved with a whole different set of regulatory aspect with the Resource Coverage Act in OSHA and all the disposal regulations that or recycling regulations that apply. So yeah there are different considerations that need to be considered. It's a much more difficult beast let's put it that way dealing with those kinds of submissions or coverages if that's what you're looking at trying to cover a facility that's dealing with that. Thank you and so the other question from Maria is there a secondary market for lithium batteries that are being used to manufacture consumer products? I have not become aware of any official entity. I know it is probably happening which to a whole nother can of worms on how do you know that the products you're getting if in fact they are secondary used lithium-ion batteries what the state of health of that battery is and we have had in conversation and have actually sat through a presentation from a German company that is state-of-the-art monitoring and being able to now issue certificates saying the state of health of that battery is as though it was an originally manufactured and meeting all the original standards and I'm sure there are some if you look them up online I think I did that and there was at least two other entities here in the United States that also are able to provide that service and provide the state of health of a used battery but I don't know of an entity that's actually publicizing that that's what they're doing but undoubtedly it will happen if it hasn't already so something else to be careful of for sure this question is from Alex for battery chemistry how do we get our customers to understand the difference between the type just through training just through training and there are if you were to look online most of the information I learned have been from our energy and construction guys and from chemical engineers that have joined us in our work group any of the information I just presented on the chemistry I mean it was all foreign to me two years ago three years ago so there is a learning curve that needs to be looked at and yeah there are various resources that will go through the different types of battery chemistries and again they're continually evolving so I would recommend everybody to try to stay up with some of the battery chemistries and some of the leading battery manufacturing firms are leading to charge to finding solutions to some of the problems they're having and it's going to take time industry is not failing they're coming to the call it will eventually whether that's five years down the road or ten years down the road different energy solutions are happening we'll do two more questions and then we'll wrap up for this is from John for EB charging areas in a parking garage are extra hazard group to sprinklers considered adequate you know I would have to look that up because I am NOT the sprinkler expert to determine that I know that there are different sprinkler deluge systems now being looked at for parking garages but you know one of the things I learned about the parking garage situations whether that's at an airport or at a hotel or at a residential apartment complex most parking complexes were never built thinking that these types of fires would be occurring and would also possibly have EV charging stations in the garage to be charging these batteries at a time so that is you know it's a great question I'm not able to answer that I I'm just not familiar enough with the different types of sprinkler systems that are currently out there but we can surely work to find that answer for him and I know some of our inland marine people on my team could probably better answer that question for them all right one more question well packages with battery label state if it's lithium-ion and so she's saying this is from Jill and she's saying she's seen that label many times but didn't it did not see a specified type of battery would this have been another type of battery it could have been interestingly enough I don't believe any of the current regulations out there require the battery chemistry or the type to be listed on the exterior of the package only requirement is for lithium-ion batteries to have the warning label that I showed or somehow identifying that this could be a lithium-ion battery in it the type of lithium-ion batteries as I showed I only listed four different chemistries there's probably 24 different chemistries out there maybe not quite that many but there there are a variety of different ones and there's nothing that I'm aware of in the regulations that say it has to be disclosed on the outside of the of the package well thank you so much this has been really informative and we've got a lot of comments in the in the chat saying you know they thought this was really helpful and thank you very much for this presentation today Captain Lund you're welcome and thank you for the opportunity thank you to to IMUA for for providing this opportunity for all your members and for me to share my knowledge I enjoy it absolutely and to our attendees we posted a link to the survey in the chat box please take a moment to complete it as your feedback is very important to us please note that Captain Lund is willing to expand on this topic in a webinar to be presented next year so please be sure to include any comments about you know what you'd like to hear in an upcoming webinar for next year okay we're ready for the most engaged attendee do you have a name in mind there were lots of great questions today there was a lot of great questions today and there was a lot of great questions and I'm just going to mention their first names those that sent in questions previously that helped me direct my presentation there was Heather Ricky Grant Chris two different Chris's Glenn in a Peter but what I really really enjoyed was one of the questions that Heather had sent and if you want hopefully she is still has attended the training and you want the full name now I got it and I will send her a $25 Amazon gift card congratulations Heather and it was a very good questions actually numerous questions that she asked and I was impressed with them very applicable well thank you to all our attendees for your participation and your interesting questions today we hope to see you at our next webinar have a wonderful day this concludes the webinar take care bye bye

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